Community Question: Spread vs Recoil

(DarkangelUK) #181

I think that was his point, don’t use all hitscan weapons. Again though that depends on the game, you’re not gonna have weird and wacky guns in a military shooter.

(tangoliber) #182

You don’t need to go full wacky… Something like Resistance 3 doesn’t go full wacky, but is able to have interesting guns.

You can take the same concept of a “wacky gun”, but re-skin it so that it looks sci-fi or steampunk or whatever.

Mixture of hitscan and projectiles is good. Projectiles like the plasma gun in Doom 3 work great alongside a mostly hitscan arsenal.

(.Chris.) #183

ET had nade launchers, flame throwers and mortars. Whilst they weren’t perfect, with some reworking they could be included again.

(Humate) #184

Give us disc launchers and flak cannons and chain laser guns… not 5 types of smgs with different spreads.

Definitely agree with the last part.
But quite fine sticking with standard weaponry.

(tokamak) #185

But now we’re getting in the area of non-lethal utilities of weapons. Definitely important but not relevant (my bad).

(DarkangelUK) #186

How is having weapons being unique beyond spread and recoil not relevant, and how are they non-lethal?

(tokamak) #187

Most of the non hit-scan weapons have non-lethal purposes. Doesn’t mean they’re not lethal but it means they’re not directly used for killing.

Hitscan weapons however, are purely meant for killing. They’re work-tools and there’s slight nuances in the different areas and purposes they become more or less useful. There’s overlap in the supressive fire depatment and in some shooters there’s some tension between stopping power.

However, if you start to pile all weapons on while pile then you need to start including grenades (of all types), deployables, vehicles and all other kinds of tools and perks, even that aren’t directly needed for objectives, including melee and paddles.

Now this can just be me but I think this discussion would be sharper if we limited ourselves to the hitscan weapons and not all the toys around it. It doesn’t mean these toys are less important, far from it, it’s just that they’re spilling over the boundaries of this discussion.

(DarkangelUK) #188

Yes, it’s just you.

(tangoliber) #189

[QUOTE=tokamak;404825]Most of the non hit-scan weapons have non-lethal purposes. Doesn’t mean they’re not lethal but it means they’re not directly used for killing.

Hitscan weapons however, are purely meant for killing. They’re work-tools and there’s slight nuances in the different areas and purposes they become more or less useful. There’s overlap in the supressive fire depatment and in some shooters there’s some tension between stopping power.

However, if you start to pile all weapons on while pile then you need to start including grenades (of all types), deployables, vehicles and all other kinds of tools and perks, even that aren’t directly needed for objectives, including melee and paddles.

Now this can just be me but I think this discussion would be sharper if we limited ourselves to the hitscan weapons and not all the toys around it. It doesn’t mean these toys are less important, far from it, it’s just that they’re spilling over the boundaries of this discussion.[/QUOTE]

I think they are important because the more toys we have, the less number of hitscan smgs/assault rifles we need, which means that we need a lot less spread deviation for the sake of variety. If you are trying to create a huge variety of hitscan weapons, but you want to keep them accurate, then you pretty much can only play with different rate of fires, and recoil. Ammo capacity and reloading time don’t do enough to make a gun feel unique. For a f2p game, you will quickly make players feel burned out if you keep releasing weapons that feel the same as others…like in Tribes: Ascend.

Projectile based weapons, such as a gun that shoots discs, or a gun that shoots plasma, can definitely be lethal on direct hits. I like the idea of a laser gun that emits a really brief beam… The impact is instant like hitscan, but because it might last for 0.2 seconds or something, its more likely that a target will walk into the beam if you lead them a little bit.
And I definitely love the idea of mini-mortars. Think of the fusion mortar in Tribes, but extremely short range, and small blast radius. Like the Brink lobster, but with a slower projectile, and deadlier blast. Would be an excellent skill-based weapon.

I hope they go a slightly sci-fi route (or alternate history, or steampunk, or whatever), because

  1. power armor allows for more health which allows for better gameplay without suspended the player’s disbelief too much. The amount of health we had in Brink was nice from a gameplay perspective…but it rubbed some people the wrong way because they were looking at characters with just t-shirts on or something. With power-armor, you negate that feeling of “the guns don’t do anything.”
  2. Variety in guns while keeping all of them accurate and skill-based
(Boktor) #190

Generally I’d say rate of fire and damage are just as important in differentiating weapons as spread and recoil.

I see a lot of posts questioning the validity of spread, but I’d like to see it stay in future SD titles. When an FPS is centered on machine-gun type weapons I think it’s for the best when there’s a balance between the importance of player accuracy and the limitations of the guns.

(tokamak) #191

It doesn’t mean these toys are less important, far from it

And I wouldn’t say these two types of weapons are in each other’s way. At all. Hitscan weapons offer subtle nuances in the way you approach firefights and the ‘toys’ offer lots of stratagems that can completely sway combat in any direction.

(DarkangelUK) #192

So in other words, what a pointless debate you’ve brought up once again.

(Dthy) #193

Just keep it the same as in ETQW so Tokangel/Darkamak (that’s what I’m going to call you both when you next inevitably start a new debate, thought I haven’t decided which name yet) can recharge their batteries for the next community question.

(murka) #194

Making multiple versions of same gun type usually boils down to one being the best based on damage output, so making 5 types of smgs is a waste of artists’ work hours in my honest opinion. Quake-ish weapon selection is more preferable where weapons are worlds apart and therefore every weapon is used.

Dynamic spread is another thing i rather see games done without. It has failed too many times to be a viable option. I’ve seen people saying “oh, you must burst fire to be effective” but such behavior in a game is rarely effective. The balance is offset by mobility: you run fast towards the enemy and spray them on full auto because balancing usually overlooks movement. Too many games are balanced towards camper-oriented movement. This was pretty much the reason why everyone used smgs in brink, specifically the carb-9.

Stat-based balancing only works when you use the extremes like (low dmg, high spread, high rof) or (low rof, low spread, high dmg), but this just gave us different types of weapons, namely a machine gun and a sniper rifle.

ETQW pretty much did it right as every weapon found a use. That is except for the shotgun/nailgun.

(SockDog) #195

I think this is a good point. If weapons are being put in there to drive an economy then perhaps an alternative revenue source should be sought rather than compromising the game as a whole.

Why not have different weapon skins and visual effects but with the same damage model. Place more emphasis on those glory shots and videos so people can show off their characters. Create limited edition weapons and put up a item trading zone on the Fireteam website then take a percentage from the auctions. Have an ability to pay to unlock custom skins so users can add their own content.

(Dormamu) #196

What is the SD Staff opinion on this?
Btw Badman this polls are a two way street, it would be better if you guys would join more in this conversations/polls.This way you can steer the conversations on the parts you are really interested and make it more engaging for everyone. Making those polls more interactive can buy you more time for your Unannounced project and bring in more benefits for you/us/trolls :smiley:

(TheSgtBilko) #197

I rather have it the old way e.g. sten gun available for LTs was stealthy and more accurate but would overheat quickly.
And spread per each weapon was controlled by stance, be it shouldered/crouched vs hip/moving.

I’m really tired of games with 10 different achievement guns that are almost the same and that players put all their effort into getting instead of teamplay.

RtCW (and ET) was perfect, you had your loadout with minimum variations and that was it.
If you wanted a different weapon than your designated class weapon, you had to pick up one from a fallen player.

(Dthy) #198

I think the next community question should be about the amount of guns (something like 20/30 in Brink whereas ETQW has 6), and whether some are class specific (like ETQW) or not (like brink).

(Smurfer) #199

Spread. Random kills. Even the lousiest player can get lucky. And the best might get unlucky. The randomness provides something “new” in each game.

(SockDog) #200

Random is for dice rollers. They should stick to RPGs or beg for RPG makers to add FPS elements to their games like in Fallout.