Community Question: Restoring Team Balance


(Humate) #21

It may not be as effective but moving around a lot of players during a match is detrimental to deployable and vehicle play, class balance, cohesion and holds of strategic locations.

In my experience, mid match shuffles are the least effective, and least respected in terms of a result.
The map needs to be restarted, the XP and unlocks need to return to their previous state, OR it needs to be played out with a shuffle at the beginning of the following map.

Granted, the average joe will most likely F2 any shuffle that causes him to lose his xp or unlocks.


(tokamak) #22

The point is that this is the only way to reward a team based on merit. If you know another way then do tell.

Players aren’t being handed buffs for doing nothing but rather buffs based on their individual performance. This means that the best player in the disadvantaged team will suddenly stand out much more than the rest. This is especially satisfying to all the skilful players who have been let down by their teams. This allows good players for more capacity to ‘carry’ the team and drag them up rather than the skilful players in the bad team being inhibited.

It’s already far superior to handing out a flat xp bonus for simply changing the team. As changing the team doesn’t necessitate actually adding to the team.

Not only does this help to make the match more balanced, it also makes it way more attractive to play on the losing side if you’re a good player. If you’re less skilful then the xp boost isn’t going to do much because you won’t be able to earn as much to multiply it further anyway.

Another huge plus is that this system is dynamic. If the xp-boost is directly tied to the xp-difference then all players know exactly where they stand. A small difference gives a small bonus and a huge difference gives a large bonus. So for a small difference most players won’t bother changing (because of the inherent xp generating advantage of being on the winning side) but some may defect. When the difference grows larger, more and more players will succumb to that lure of receiving more rewards for their efforts, even if it means fighting a tougher game.

Biosnark already succinctly pointed out that he’s talking about xp as an unlock resource rather than a score. If it’s exclusively an unlock resource then you’re helping disadvantaged teams in an elegant way without spoiling the score.

There’s one thing that bothers me about this idea though. And that’s that I haven’t thought of it first.


(DarkangelUK) #23

Great, another hijacked thread by tokamak. If you honestly think that doubling the losing teams XP to bring them inline with the winning team fixes the imbalance then you’re a flat out moron. If you think that XP having such an effect that it can cause said imbalance is perfectly fine then you’re a flat out moron.

The fact you get double XP for a single action compared to someone else doing the same action on the winning team which, lets be clear, you said should be used to measure skill level, would further break an already broken system is utterly idiotic and you should be banned from the discussion for even suggesting it after the drama queen song and dance you made about using XP to measure skill.

Sorry tok, you’re a moron.


(Humate) #24

^ thats not nice :frowning:


(SockDog) #25

The point is you’re back to exploiting the already exploitable XP system. It’s frustrating to have nearly every component of the game tied back into a system that detracts from the game and instead encourages everyone to play for themselves. Not sure how many times I need to repeat this but if TEAMS are imbalanced then the measure and correction needs to be done on a TEAM basis and it can’t be permanent.


(BioSnark) #26

This was the thread where unlocks/xp was discussed: http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/32051-Community-Question-Campaign-Rewards-and-Unlocks and, to some extent, this http://forums.warchestgames.com/showthread.php/32471-Community-Question-Measuring-Player-Skill

Apparently it’s a minority of us who don’t like statistically significant campaign unlocks which is why I suggested something different and relevant to the subject of this thread, maintaining team balance. Lets stay on target at least till this thread starts going in circles a few times.


(rookie1) #27

Pause game for few secs …ask for voluntary Switch team …if no one …switch latest player to the other team
If impossible to Balance give Bonus points or other goodies to the team with less players :slight_smile:


(SockDog) #28

Unfortunately unless you’re going to look at a means to drive game mechanics without XP, the topic is going to come back to the XP system. It’s tired and I’m fed up hearing about it too but you can’t say “swap players based on points/score/XP” or “double XP” without honestly asking how that score/XP is derived in the first place. If that system can be manipulated directly or indirectly then the mechanic you base it on is also going to be flawed.

So if we don’t want to rehash the old ground why not come up with some suggestions and new approaches that don’t cover it and discuss those? Maybe the first things to agree on is whether the problem of imbalanced teams leading to negative game experiences exists to a degree that it requires attention? And do the current methods listed in the poll alleviate the problem to a significant degree?

Because frankly if we don’t give a **** about imbalanced teams then why waste resources trying to fix it. Likewise if the methods to fix it fail, why consider them again.


(TomTom7777) #29

The important thing is not who wins / loses but did the player have fun. That is more related generally on whether they felt their play was good or whether they were out classed.
Additional elements that affect fun are team co-operation and focus, chat and chatter, annoying opponents, ping response, knowing the map and weapons, etc.

Calculating FP (fun points) is not as simple as XP, but some things can be tried. For instance the survival time may correlate to FP (repeated low survival time => low FP generally). Are they being pwded by one opposing player vs many opposing players? How did they die ( Sniped? fun for the sniper but less so the victim, blasted to bits? Might be a drag if done from a distance with no defense). Killed by bots? (bots should be difficult but not dominating). Team co-operation is of course impossible to really measure but a game can provide bonuses to team mates who run together, maybe even detect saves (one player killing an opponent attacking a low health team mate). One of the most valuable rewards is a team player chatting a thanks (and some can be counted for estimating FP). Indeed awards of commendation with no other benefit during and after a game may hold some through the whole match. E.G. Open special awards just for good players on the losing team.
What you really want is an “is everybody having fun?” survey button before they disconnect but alas that won’t work.

The best way for mid-game re-balancing is when a good or very good player on the winning team chooses to go help the losing team. Not all players have the maturity to do this and not all players will see the stats when the need arises. But volunteering is a self reward to those that do. A game could add to that reward by offering special unique powers to those that switch (camper detection, or highest opposing XP map-tracking, or even those old Quake 3 silly super powers if the game isn’t to be taken too seriously). These rewards need not be permanent, and should be open to those whose XP is above the bottom half in the losing team. Getting single players to switch is not possible in all matches so additional bonuses to those already on the losing side should also be available (respawn and recharge being the most obvious, but armor and ammo at the spawn is good too).

And if the losing team does lose players then yes some automatic bot players to fill the spots is a good idea if the bots are well capable, with good Human play characteristics that don’t annoy. Filling in immediately may slow XP inflation in the winning team, though the good players on the losing team also lose the benefit that comes from having relatively more opponents to kill. The bot player names should be handled in the right way so that spectators know they can take over a bots place.

Team balance testing of waypoints for an W:ET bot (FritzBot) is a simple mass test of matches, but before I get there I try out each team and position myself until my FP says the waypoints are ready.


(Humate) #30

The important thing is not who wins / loses but did the player have fun

The important thing is to allow or accept whatever the game presents, and accept the challenge.
That means playing against stacks, getting spawn camped, getting fragged by the same player 15 times in a row and finding a solution. When these individual moments happen, that becomes the game. The objective isnt to complete the objective. The objective is to come up with a solution for the challenge presented to you in the game, so that you can eventually complete the main objective. Its important that the game allows you to do that on an individual level via soft and/or hard counters like ETQW. In a game like Brink which always requires hand holding, a lot of time the appropriate response for the challenge presented is out of your direct control.

Now most players probably are conditioned to enjoy presenting the challenge over coming up with a response.So in that respect, the game can be less fun. In addition to that, on some level the player needs to feel as though a victory is possible. But this is easily solved by altering the win condition or the goal. Not the game’s winning condition, but the one in their mind.

/cough


(Ruben0s) #31

Only if teams are uneven everyone should pick a new side at the beginning of the next round. Picking a team should be really easy like pressing your left or right mouse button so the new players won’t get confused. And maybe give people a penalty for leaving midgame or something like that.


(Breo) #32

If your playing a time based mode shuffle midgame is the worst possible option. Because the weaker team messed up the elapsed time and probably it can’t be fixed with the amount of objects, unless you restart the match aswell.

Afaik the only fair way to rebalance midgame is to switch the player (if nobody vuluntary within a amount of time) with the lowest score because this player didn’t contribute much to the team yet. Allthough if this a afk player it won’t change much xD


(tokamak) #33

Goes to show how far you read my post.

  • Unlock resources and skill score can be treated as different things (IE you still get the same score reward for each handling even though the boost makes it contribute more towards unlocking stuff)
  • The xp boost isn’t just double but dymamically tied to the xp difference. So for it to be double the other team would have a shared xp team of twice your team. If this is the case then the other team is already having such a huge advantage that double xp generation is totally acceptable. Most of the time the xp difference will be small which in turn makes the xp boost of the team with the smallest xp pool modest.

This is the only system that allows for a direct negative feedback on teams getting out of balance based on the merits of the individual player. That’s what makes it beautiful.


(Indloon) #34

[QUOTE=Salteh;406120]
8 vs 10 is not ideal, but acceptable. 8 vs 11 is just nasty :(.[/QUOTE]

But if these 8 players are pros and 11 are n00bs!


(DarkangelUK) #35

It’s a botched, half assed system that only works in your mind. Before you hijack another thread with your pointless, blind gibbering I’m going to leave it at this… your system can never and will never work, end of. It’s been proven not to work, it’s been proven to be open to abuse, it’s been proven to be inaccurate and not a piss poor basis for measuring skill, never mind balancing something it can’t calculate in the 1st place.

Do us all a favour, you’ve said your piece of nonsense, now don’t derail yet -another- thread with some more XP shenanigans.


(tokamak) #36

Well the only actual limit is that this works better with temporary unlocks than with permanent unlocks. With temporary unlocks the disadvantaged team can still catch up while with permanent unlocks it’s merely compensation for having a bad time.

I’m not really sure how this is a derailment. Aside from it not being my idea in the first place it’s also exactly about balancing disadvantaged qualitatively disadvantaged teams. So far we’ve only been discussing quantitative imbalance which is a pretty trivial issue compared to skill/strength imbalance.


(MoonOnAStick) #37

The best way for mid-game re-balancing is when a good or very good player on the winning team chooses to go help the losing team.

Agreed TomTom but I think most sensible people don’t need any incentive to switch beyond the prospect of better games. Voted for ‘Offer XP to players for changing teams’ because it’s handy to know when the teams are numerically uneven. I was surprised more than once in Brink to find a previously full team only had 1/2 human players left at the end of a round, which I suppose is a compliment for the bots.


(tokamak) #38

Trusting on the gamers being good samaritans is a bad idea though.


(Humate) #39

I’ve mentioned this before in the other thread, but the top players dont usually play very hard in pub matches when they see imbalanced teams. A nice side effect of this is, if the lower skilled team ends up winning, they arent aware that they’re given a handicap and can enjoy the win as if they earnt it. When a shuffle is called, the win is urinated on with the tag of charity. The players that lose post-shuffle claim the game doesnt shuffle properly.

However Pubstars (aka mid level players) will switch teams primarily to prove their own value as a player, veiled as a ‘good samaritan’. Occasionally you’ll get a low skilled player making a big fuss in chat he switched across, so people draw the conclusion hes a nice guy… its still motivated by ego.


(_Megabyte) #40

ETQW is strictly clan vs. clan game, so no re-balancing. pub is random nonsense, you can get balance only by chance.