Community Question: Campaign Rewards and Unlocks

(SockDog) #21

[QUOTE=tokamak;395695]Sometimes I wonder why you would even hang out in this place. If you want a classic shooter stripped to it’s bare essence then there’s already countless of them available. Nobody is depriving you of any access to any of such games and frankly I don’t see why we would need even more of them, there’s only so many variations on this ‘pure arcade’ theme.

SD doesn’t make these and strives to push on the genre with mechanics that create a playing field that can suck players in for years like they did with their ET’s.[/QUOTE]

I could likewise ask why you consistently insist that a non persistent 20 minute match FPS game needs to emulate a persistent MMORPG despite abundant proof that the more it does, the greater it imbalances the game. If you read up a few posts you’ll see that I have no issue with implementing elements that can alter gameplay or innovation of the genre, my grudge is the mechanism to which SD have used in the past and one you promote without regard for the consequences.

Its also a tad disingenuous of you to make out like I want Quake3 from SD. There is plenty there to enjoy with the class system and objective style of play that doesn’t involve leveling up characters or a convoluted XP system to drive a 5% increase here or there. IMO SD would do far better by going back to basics and doing that well, make a solid game with solid features and good balance rather than constantly chasing this airy idea that you can hide an RPG inside the game and nobody will notice it or the impact.

(tangoliber) #22

I voted for none at all. I like for everything to be available at the start. However, I am fine with unlocks that reset with each map or campaign…they just need to be implemented well.

(MoonOnAStick) #23

++

somechars

(Humate) #24

I voted for none at all. I like for everything to be available at the start. However, I am fine with unlocks that reset with each map or campaign…they just need to be implemented well.

^^^ Most unlocks in a campaign reset system are enhanced versions of stuff you already have.
In the event that there is something new that is introduced - they make up for this by making them Level1 or Level2.

(tokamak) #25

You said RPG features damage the core FPS mechanics whilst class system and objective style aren’t intrinsic futures of an FPS and originate from RPG’s. There’s your issue, you keep moaning about going back to basics while clinging on to things that aren’t basic at all. I say that, because we’re talking about a game that already has considerable depth we might as well include the other aspects from other genres that make interaction between classes in accordance to reach a specific objective run so smoothly, namely xp-rewards and character development.

(Breo) #26

Maybe it’t not the best way but I think it’s better to reward players with points, medals etc. or we need weapons that are already available to counter the unlocks.

The (gameplay effecting) unlocks still give a advantage over players (equal skills) without them, even if it’s not that much.

I voted for this one: No gameplay-affecting rewards at all

(Humate) #27

I think once it gets into creating builds and such, it starts getting a bit silly.
I do however understand the attraction though, because it allows players to ‘manufacture’ their value, as opposed to earning it through a bit of practice. Plus a well thought out creative build gets the benefit of surprise.

(SockDog) #28

I never said anything of the sort, you’re putting words into my mouth to help paint a picture of me being some deluded Q3 fan and avoiding any discussion about the impacts of what you propose. So, how about less semantics on what a core FPS is, because you know full well I’m not walking Quake 3, and more discussion of the points I’ve raised.

(tokamak) #29

Always kicking up some soap opera whenever someone calls you out on your tripe. Either you want TFclassic all over again or I do not know what the hell you’re on about.

(BioSnark) #30

I don’t agree that persistent progression rewards are less legitimate than any other rewards if players perceive them as rewarding. I also wouldn’t have any problem with a pvp RPG FPS so long as the cost to parity of competition was counterbalanced by the added depth or variety of the experience.

This is all a legitimate topic of discussion, however. It’s certainly one I hope all contemporary pvp FPS developers are discussing internally. You seem to be associating a number of tangential desires with sockdog’s rejection of one (RPG/progression) feature as a way of setting up an extremist straw man.

(tokamak) #31

Oh it’s legitimate. The merits of an elaborate yet elegant system of mechanics to enrich the shooter environment has got to be my favourite topic to discuss. Call me a freak if you will but I can think for hours on end on this.

What Sockdog does however is to suggest some magic fairy as a substitute for what’s supposed to be a masterfully fine-tuned clockwork. It’s the magic wizard or nothing and that just spoils the entire discourse.

(gr33nf4c3) #32

I voted neither of the above. I liked what Brink did with the challenges, though. Players are granted a wider range of weapons when they take the time to master these “tutorial” missions. It’s not a grind and if the challenges are good, people might learn a thing or two.

I didn’t really mind the permanent upgrades in Brink as they usually aren’t game changers anyway. What I didn’t like is that you’d have to have at least two characters to really get all the unlocks that can come in handy.

I love what TF2 does, though. Sure, who plays more gets more loot - but the weapons are so well balanced that I never feel like a sucker for only using default weapons.

(tokamak) #33

The challenges were fun to do but that they were linked to multiplayer relevant rewards was just downright bull**** and a missed opportunity to integrate the reward system better with the actual in-game action of the player.

(gr33nf4c3) #34

Would you mind elaborating the integration opportunities a little?

I thought about tieing some unlocks to certain in-game actions- roughly the way achievements work. But before you know it, you’ll have “unlock-farming”-servers if your game is popular. That’s what I liked about the challenges. If someone wanted to be a dick about completing all of these, at least they don’t mess with the other players on their team - because there are none.

(Miki) #35

Didn’t read everything so sorry if there is double stuff:

watch out with player awards. In most cases, it will unbalance the game (the better player gets rewarded, and the worse player has a hard time catching up). My suggestion would be to promote team play. (For instance: you are a medic and want to self heal? You can get 1 medpack giving you 20 health back. If you use it to help teammates, you can use more (even for yourself)). So you have to help your team instead of wondering off alone. (A bit like ET style, just no awards that help only the player, but the team)

I don’t know how often you should reset. Just keep in mind that it shouldn’t be the team that won the first round, that wins all other campaign maps & that half-joiners don’t leave because they get their $!!? kicked :wink:

(Nosferatu) #36

But before you know it, you’ll have “unlock-farming”-servers if your game is popular. That’s what I liked about the challenges. If someone wanted to be a dick about completing all of these, at least they don’t mess with the other players on their team - because there are none.

I agree, if the unlock system is separated from the multiplayer matches people can unlock and learn the basics before going online.

I also prefer equipment unlocks/customization opposed to stat improvements like reduced spread or higher damage/health,… Adding a customization doesn’t or shouldn’t change the overall balance of a weapon/equipment. Unless we’re talking noob-tube or shotgun attachments the overall balance of the weapon would be the same. If ALL the items are balanced enough, it shouldn’t matter which one you use. I would also suggest that the tactically more advanced options are unlocked at a later point or in the later challenges. (For example snipers would be unlocked later)

The same can be said for the vehicles, they should only be available for those who completed a challenge or tutorial. (HOW NOT: e.g. BF3 -> people mess around to get a vehicle, but when they actually get it they can’t control it properly or use it the way it was designed.) Also the harder to control or use them approprietly, they are the later they should be unlocked.

(CSL) #37

I prefer the Et style unlocks for the following reasons. On large 50 plus spot servers the unlocks have very little effect on the oucome of the match. Obviously for competition all players start at the the same level, for those who like the grind there is always the !resetmyxp command. The biggest complaint in my ET experience when it comes to xp is shuffling by xp because xp has no connection to skill although for ET there are new mods such as SiLenT that shuffle using K/D ratio.

(tokamak) #38

[QUOTE=gr33nf4c3;395835]Would you mind elaborating the integration opportunities a little?

I thought about tieing some unlocks to certain in-game actions- roughly the way achievements work. But before you know it, you’ll have “unlock-farming”-servers if your game is popular. That’s what I liked about the challenges. If someone wanted to be a dick about completing all of these, at least they don’t mess with the other players on their team - because there are none.[/QUOTE]

The challenge correspond to in-game actions but aren’t directly connected. As for unlock-farming servers, see my first post on how the permanent layer should be treated. The permanent layer should only affect the way a player develops himself throughout a game. Under that system unlock-farming would be neigh pointless.

(iwound) #39

Like E.T.

i just wish there were better more interesting upgrades like the ability to smoke a ciggy.
short lasting shield.
big ears to hear enemies.

also negative upgrades. err or downgrade lol ie slower, hurting, deafness for short periods.

lol im rambling.

i still dream of Mr Do! Multiplayer in 3D. everygame should have cherries in it.

remember fun < realism.

(Humate) #40

[QUOTE=Miki;395838]Didn’t read everything so sorry if there is double stuff:

watch out with player awards. In most cases, it will unbalance the game (the better player gets rewarded, and the worse player has a hard time catching up). [/QUOTE]

This is actually incorrect as stated earlier in the thread. :slight_smile:
The better player is always going to beat the lesser player, regardless of unlocks.
They only effect players that are of the same skill level.