Closed Beta update v30598: Tweaking Stopwatch, Defibs, Mercs, Maps, and more

(RasteRayzeR) #41

The shotgun isn’t a part of it, it’s fully player controlled and depends only on skill. As for the mines they aren’t mines if you have to trigger them … I don’t want the mines to be the frag engine of Proxi, au contraire I don’t like it but nerfing the shotgun is pushing players to rely exclusively on the mines. A good shotgun with true damage at close range, that’s all it is about (again, my point is about the shotgun, not the mines)

(ailmanki) #42

my 2 cents about proxy and other ramblings,
her secondary gun should be useful on distance. Like average of all guns.
Shotgun should should be deadly when shooting the face at close range. Almost deadly when you hit the body. But I don’t like the idea of one shot kill;
Same for snipers - just because average players don’t aim as good, some clearly do - and it makes them OP, compared to the spread of other guns.
Like if I had perfect aim? Which merc would I choose - I had say its a sniper. Since everything else has random spread.
Or maybe Proxy could have a /futuristic/ shotgun? Which has 2 fire modes - one for distance one for closer range?

And if I am not mistaken, wouldn’t a /trained/ player be able to use a sniper gun in close range? Quickly scope in, more or less on the body and shoot (instant kill of Proxy)? - Or even have a bind extra doing that? In which case Proxy would always loose against a good sniper.

One thing about the mines and other explosives which are alike. Everything except those explosives is well marked with a huge icon. A spotted player gets a triangle, objectives have that to; but mines and such don’t have it. Well I am personally not fan of all those HUD information’s, yet its a inconsistency I noticed.

(Humate) #43

ETQW had the mines too, and they worked very well. I don’t know if you played it but they didn’t had any glowing lights or loud beeps to detect them but they worked in the game, and hell they were the same color as the walls. The reason for it I believe was that you had to arm them manually, thing I did ask for Proxi like many others here in XT. Even more : you had up to 3 mines and if I remember right two were enough to kill. With the size reduction of the maps in XT compared to QW, it’s normal that you get only one or two mines maximum but I see no reason why they should be removed from Proxi, even more that a single mine can’t kill a guy anymore (full hp).

I think the major difference b/w XT and ETQW are objective mines are way more influential in XT.
In etqw you walk into a room, its automatic to throw a nade on the objective from afar just to clear out mines or 3rd eye.
In XT you walk up to the objective, see the mine, opt to shoot it to counter - and someone back-rages you because they were camping in the corner.
Players that relied on decoy mines, back-raging or flanking usually got beaten in etqw because the dps wasnt high enough to compensate for the positional advantage and average aim.

tldr: I dont really have an issue with mines; its more how they relate to the combat system and counter system.

(INF3RN0) #44

OHK shotgun is not skillful. You need 1/10th the aiming ability as a sniper rifle to get the same result. Sniping from long range won’t make it any easier to aim, which is the point. 3 hits with shotgun isn’t a bad thing because you really have to land your shots now, but her health and speed should be enough to allow her to obtain kills- maybe even increase the shotgun fire speed.

(montheponies) #45

I really dont get the argument that engineers and medic can’t or shouldn’t be able to kill. First and foremost this is a FPS, that would tend to make me think that folk will want to play characters that let them shoot and kill other players.

I found Proxy fun to play a couple of patches ago when she had a single mine, decent health and a reasonable primary weapon, albeit only at close range. If you make a character that has no capability who will actually play it?

Personally I think the current approach of classless objectives is a sound approach to properly test the enjoyability of each character, without the false crutch of having them required by the map.

Hopefully once some testing has been done we can mebbe go back to class based objectives, but only at a point where is can be seen that each character has it’s place.

If we’re going to rant about something, how about bloody Sparks and that bloody speedhacking ninja mofo…

(INF3RN0) #46

I don’t know what that’s a response to, but the argument from me here is that shotguns in general should be more balanced around player ability and less around situational positioning to get kills (compensating with merc stats). As for mines and other auto-damage abilities, they should compliment the gun play, not do it for you. I just want mercs that people don’t have to call “pub friendly” simply because all they really do is help the guy who doesn’t usually do well with a fully player controlled merc suddenly feel better without them changing anything on their side.

(Protekt1) #47

If the game gets a lot more movement options, other than strafing back and forth in combat, then shotguns could be nice. I like how it worked in titanfall for example even though it was fairly longer range than normal. I think shotguns in general are just cheap, lower skill, easier to use weapons. But they could work if the movement becomes more varied and better to dodge or avoid having to walk face to face with a weapon that just wins because you’re close.

(INF3RN0) #48

I totally agree. If we had more advanced maneuvers available a shotgun would gain a big appeal considering headshots would become much more difficult to land consistently in general.

(RasteRayzeR) #49

Wut ? Where do you get your “1/10 the aiming ability as a sniper rifle” ? I find it way easier to snipe down a guy simply because you have the range to cover you. You are trying to put on the same level ranged and closed combat mercs ?

When you snipe you can miss a few shot, the worst that happens is that you don’t kill the guy. Miss a shot in close range, you’re dead. And yeah, 3 shots with the shotgun is bad because you have 75 HP and every other merc survives you now. I’m not a bad aimer in general, but this patch with Proxi I get close to -1 or 2 k/d ratio when I can get a good 1.5 k/d with phoenix for example or go higher with soldiers. This is simply not viable.

The only option here is either increase the damage of the shotgun to 1 headshot - 2 bodyshots at close range, or increase firing speed by a third so we get the same result in terms of TTK. (including more ammo)

HP won’t be higher because she runs fast, the mines won’t change because two under-powered mines seems to be the way to go, so we can only rely on the shotgun now (that doesn’t allow you to exit a close combat situation anymore). I’s plain simple : if you cannot kill with a merc, it won’t be used. RIP Proxi.

(RasteRayzeR) #50

You have to take a lot more risks and expose yourself to get in range, I believe it is justified that you can output way more damage at close range. The tracking skill is the same than with any other weapon because personally, I rarely kill with a single shot.

Shotguns are different than the rifles for sure, but I wouldn’t say they are cheap : they require a different set of skills that go from establishing your surival rate in a situation to priority target selection really quickly. The sniper is cheap though, because you output a lot of damage without taking any risks or getting exposed from a long range. Last time I played Aimee I got the biggest k/d ratio I ever had in XT.

So let’s make sure all the sniper need 10 body shots and 2 headshots to kill, that will make it more meaningful in terms of skill : wrong solution

(INF3RN0) #51

[QUOTE=RasteRayzeR;490773]Wut ? Where do you get your “1/10 the aiming ability as a sniper rifle” ? I find it way easier to snipe down a guy simply because you have the range to cover you. You are trying to put on the same level ranged and closed combat mercs ?

When you snipe you can miss a few shot, the worst that happens is that you don’t kill the guy. Miss a shot in close range, you’re dead. And yeah, 3 shots with the shotgun is bad because you have 75 HP and every other merc survives you now. I’m not a bad aimer in general, but this patch with Proxi I get close to -1 or 2 k/d ratio when I can get a good 1.5 k/d with phoenix for example or go higher with soldiers. This is simply not viable.

The only option here is either increase the damage of the shotgun to 1 headshot - 2 bodyshots at close range, or increase firing speed by a third so we get the same result in terms of TTK. (including more ammo)

HP won’t be higher because she runs fast, the mines won’t change because two under-powered mines seems to be the way to go, so we can only rely on the shotgun now (that doesn’t allow you to exit a close combat situation anymore). I’s plain simple : if you cannot kill with a merc, it won’t be used. RIP Proxi.[/QUOTE]

You’re obviously stuck in one mindset, which I suppose prevents you from seeing the situation from my POV. Shotguns require very little skill to aim, and thus bother me a lot as OHK weapons. You are shooting a wide spread of bullets so aiming is not very demanding. Not to mention there’s barely any room to improve at using a weapon like this in terms of aim because the mechanics are so limited. Unless shotguns are dealt with differently so that they are flexible enough to be as viable as any other weapon and have an actual skill gap in the aim department they will never fit. That’s why it makes the most sense to me for a shotgun merc to be faster/more mobile, have perhaps more HP, and take a few hits to kill with- rather than the alternative of a close range glass cannon.

(shaftz0r) #52

really? because i think thats what needs to happen with the snipers. its bad enough one shot kills, but now they gib too, basically rewarding people for being worthless and baiting the entire team for frags. also if you dont see the extreme lack of skill it takes to toss down mines and shotgun your way to victory, i really dont know what i can say to change your mind. as ive previously said, if you truly think its been nerfed to the point of uselessness, i dont personally have any issue with other methods of buffing her again, outside of the shotgun going back to the one shot of doom cannon it was for a while

(Protekt1) #53

I think 1hk to head is fine. Even gibbing. On the other hand, they could tone down bodyshot damage to 45-50%. Maybe 50% with a leg hit making it a 3hk. Maybe more damage at range for the bolts at least cause I think close ranged sniper -> side arm is very lame.

(DarkangelUK) #54

Wouldn’t nerfing the shotgun go against players expectations? I mean, it’s a bloody shotgun for crying out loud, if you’re up close and personal with someone and hit them in the face, the expectation is that they fall… people will just get pissed off if that doesn’t happen. Again an up close, point blank shot to the body with a shotty should be taking at least 75% health off. Keep the damage up there and tweak the fire rate or reload rate if need be, but don’t destroy expectations and turn it into a tickle cannon.

Random ramblings

(RasteRayzeR) #55

Shaftzor, are you sure you have picked the right game ? Because I don’t think XT will ever meet your expectations lol. The games with 0 spread and relying only on tracking skills are long gone … (though I loved Q3, the majority of players now don’t want this anymore)

Actually for the shotgun what Inferno suggested could work : 3 bodyshots but faster shooting rate on the shotgun, so you get a regular TTK and you have to be good at tracking (bit more than currently). And I’ve always supported the manually armed mines, they are better IMO.

(RasteRayzeR) #56

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;490782]Wouldn’t nerfing the shotgun go against players expectations? I mean, it’s a bloody shotgun for crying out loud, if you’re up close and personal with someone and hit them in the face, the expectation is that fall… people will just get pissed off if that doesn’t happen. Again an up close, point blank shot to the body with a shotty should be taking at least 75% health off. Keep the damage up there and tweak the fire rate or reload rate if need be, but don’t destroy expectations and turn it into a tickle cannon.

Random ramblings[/QUOTE]

+1 to all your ramblings

Honestly, if the snipers rip off the heads and insta gib, I don’t see why a close range headshot with the shotgun wouldn’t. Technically, it should rip off half the guy. Just sayin’

(INF3RN0) #57

Weird that this whole time I’ve been very clearly avoiding realism and suggesting a rework of shotgun mechanics, not a nerf. I’ve only ever seen the old proxy benefit average aimers/players and have no appeal to anyone else. I want these weapons and mercs to have that appeal, which means they should be harder and have a higher potential for higher play. Explain to me why shotguns have to be OHK weapons, limited to extreme close range, and have such a low aim req? Make them low spread slug shooters that 2 hit kill at close range if you want the realism, but don’t just expect a weapon that gives you the benefit of high damage with no aim requirement for such convoluted reasons.

You can’t even OHK with a knife ffs, and if every shotgun player was truly l33t they’d be tearing everyone up with revolvers and deagles at close range already- but ofc that’s obviously not the case because those things can miss. And please post me those screenshots of all the bad aiming snipers getting all those effortless kills? I’ve seen very few really great snipers and they just make it as far as keeping up with every other weapon. Really expect me to just give into a half auto-damage, half crip aim merc just for some people’s personal amusement? How does the logic work… excuse me for trying to better the shotguns (same category as the fragger) with constructive suggestions.

(DarkangelUK) #58

One dimensional thought process? There’s more to the kill than just the shooting part, being a CQC weapon, the first letter gives a huge hint as the tactics required to get full use of the weapon in the first place. I’m of the same opinion with the shotty as I am with Phantom’s sword, if you let someone get so close to you that they can rub the weapon off the tip of your nose then you’ve left yourself open to the full brunt of the weapon. Phantom at least has a cloak, Proxi has nothing of the sort, so letting her get all up in your shiznit for a point blank headshot (to which the head hitbox isn’t exactly huge) then the kill is earned. Again though other stuff needs to counter this, large fall off, slow reload rate, lower firing rate.

As for the general aim skill involved? Meh I’m not commenting on that, I can’t shoot for **** with any weapon.

(RasteRayzeR) #59

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;490786]Weird that this whole time I’ve been very clearly avoiding realism and suggesting a rework of shotgun mechanics, not a nerf. I’ve only ever seen the old proxy benefit average aimers/players and have no appeal to anyone else. I want these weapons and mercs to have that appeal, which means they should be harder and have a higher potential for higher play. Explain to me why shotguns have to be OHK weapons, limited to extreme close range, and have such a low aim req? Make them low spread slug shooters that 2 hit kill at close range if you want the realism, but don’t just expect a weapon that gives you the benefit of high damage with no aim requirement for such convoluted reasons.

You can’t even OHK with a knife ffs, and if every shotgun player was truly l33t they’d be tearing everyone up with revolvers and deagles at close range already- but ofc that’s obviously not the case because those things can miss. Really expect me to just give into a half auto-damage, half crip aim merc just for some people’s personal amusement? How does the logic work… excuse me for trying to better the fraggers and shotguns with constructive suggestions.[/QUOTE]

It almost looks like you are saying you don’t even have to aim when you use shotguns, which is false. You speak about realism ? OK, then the shotgun is one shot one kill at close range, that’s what realistic would be and no one wants this in XT. Three bodyshots at close range is unrealistic. In the end you have to find the right middle ground between realism and gameplay compfort.

Compared to the other mercs, Proxi is completely dumbed-down with this patch and she is now just useless. She can’t defend herself, how can she defend an objective then ? From what I read here you are almost all asking for a Proxi without mines and with a small pistol as sole weapon under the false assumption that engineers should not get killing sprees. Problem is that with agnostic objectives, engineers have much more time and can focus on support fire as well. If you don’t give them enough fire power, not only you’re not needed anymore to do objectives, but you are also almost useless as support fire. What do you do then ? Delete all the engineers and keep giving insta gibs to other classes/mercs ?

And so what if the shotgun profits the average aimers, isn’t it the largely targetted audience for XT ? People around here have a way too big tendency to ask for a game made of an open cube world with pure insta guns and 10 seconds TTK. This kind of games are no longer working : Quake franchise : dead. Unreal Tournament : so unprofitable that they had to stop the franchise, etc.

At some point you gotta consider players who won’t be affraid to use the whole arsenal if it helps them achieve their goals, and they won’t consider how much skill you need for a weapon before using it if it suits their needs. If Proxi was so unbalanced, why didn’t we see servers full of Proxies ? Because her effectiveness is limited to her purpose. Fragger on the other hand can kill whatever, wherever, at any distance he wants. For me that’s completely unfair, because even at close range you need two headshots with the shotgun to take Fragger down, but he can kill you by the time you have fired your first shot.

Globally I believe the engineer class is broken since the agnostic objectives have been introduced, and I see Proxi being nerfed so much that she has no purpose anymore in XT except landing mines and wait for them to tick. This is boring gameplay, so give her a working, meaningful shooting mechanic with a real chance in the fight so that players don’t rely so much on the mines. It’s all I’m asking for because nerfing is not fixing in this case …

(INF3RN0) #60

So let’s just ignore trying to uphold a consistency in this game at all. I want shotguns, but I want them to appeal to more than the average joe who obviously doesn’t care or understand weapon balance in the wider scheme of xT. A good player won’t touch the old shotguns in a serious scenario, and the other side is under the illusion that they are somehow doing something special running around getting the occasional OHK in a pub. It doesn’t always have to be about aim skill, but wtf is the skill then? Getting close to a guy on tight linear maps with no real movement system = skill? Not being able to kill a better opponent with any other weapon but somehow this should be different? All I see is people getting the luck of the situation because what they are asking for is exactly what it becomes.

The way it worked before was a waste of space compared to everything else and there’s absolutely no reason why something like the shotgun can’t be adjusted towards something that fits into the bigger picture of this game. To be clear, I never once have experienced a game where one shotgun player was better than the next or was actually able to compete with other weapons in a higher skilled game. It was always stuck right in the middle of the pack with no hope of going forward or backward. Fighting to keep it that way just defeats the entire purpose of this game. It’s a fundamental design issue that eventually makes something like a fully-automated merc with 1hp that can wipe a whole team but only at point blank acceptable because hey man, that’s called balance!