Cinna's Brink impressions

(Humate) #21

[QUOTE=Maawdawg;268429]I played as operative and I didn’t think he was nearly as useless as made out to be here. First, any time you down an enemy you can scan him before he dies and it reveals every enemy on the minimap for everyone on your team for like 30 seconds. That is a HUGE advantage when you have it for your team and it is really easy to get when you are disguised and run up on a single enemy somewhere or just get a kill near some reasonable cover.

I did think that the identity swap was only going to prove useful occasionally. I used it pretty effectively a couple times though others it didn’t work well for me. At one point I used sprint around an Engineer and his turret then up and over a barrier to grab a comm terminal and earn the whole team a bonus health bar, while also removing that bonus from the other team. I didn’t even bother spotting mines, as people were just running around crazy anyway and running right over marked ones but that skill may be more useful to counter an Engineer heavy team in a slow grinding game, especially with organized teammates.

I see the operative as a situational giant in the game and could singlehandedly change momentum of a match more than any other class, if played well when those chances arise. I think his best ability right now is the commhack of a downed enemy for enemy positions, at least from the limited time I got to use him. Once you get to the higher perks like turret hacking and caltrops I think he will be better balanced as a viable “even player share”.[/QUOTE]

Things like radar are taken out of competition, to promote good comms within teams.
Therefore if you thought the biggest part of the operative’s influence was radar, then Cinna has a point. Also in ETQW comp, where radar was also disabled - covertops or inflitrators were used in order to get access to the sniper rifle or the railgun. Now that guns are not tied to class anymore, players do not need to select the Operative as much.

With that said - the denial of area perks and tools are very useful in competition. The EMP nade that slows down charges, will most certainly be used. And the firewalling of CPs is a nice bonus.

(LyndonL) #22

I still don’t understand why pubbers NEED to get into comp for the game to succeed? Just because you find comp to be your favourite scene doesn’t mean everyone else does. Otherwise it would be a larger scene…

BC2 is a year old now and the pub servers are packed at all times of the night/day. And that’s not even a well balanced game!

(Mad Hatter) #23

Agreed. For a game to be successful and have longevity it needs to be, above all else, fun for we lowly pubbers.

Anyway, I’m going to get off my computer now. When I get on again tomorrow I expect to hear some less depressing news and/or some SD corrections to this bit of news. crosses fingers

(Cinna) #24

Maybe the way I wrote it was confusing.
I am saying that pubbers that aren’t aware of competitive need to get aware of it for COMPETITIVE TO SUCCEED.
My apologies, didn’t mean for the game to succeed with that one.

(Cankor) #25

Not that it’s a big part of your write up, but you probably get a 1 second leeway on the spawn timer. That’s how it is in ETQW, if you slashkill a half second too late you’re still OK. It’s probably there to allow for lag, it’s not because of lag.

The other thing about the Operative which is over-looked here is how valuable he will be in defense. Tossing your EMP on a charge to slow it down will potentially be huge. Add to this caltrops to slow attackers, and the homing beacon to help track a guy who maybe be carrying documents or something, and you can see that there’s a lot of potential for an operative in defensive situations.

As stated, it’s not possible to fully appreciate all of the nuances in just 30 minutes of play, even if you spent the whole time on one class, with one body type, with one weapon.

(Maawdawg) #26

[QUOTE=Cinna;268481]Hi. I was the OP of this thread. This is my IMPRESSIONS, and speculations applied to them. It was only 30 minutes, and a lot of you are freaking out at it. I expect you to take my impressions with a grain of salt and my speculations as opinions. I think the game will do nicely, as long as the community makes sure it is a successfully competitive game…
[/QUOTE]

Your OP being copy/pasted here in the way they were didn’t give proper context or explain any of what you posted in the quote here and that is what probably caused the “miscommunications”, that or the lack of prefacing it with something similar to the above. Many of the conclusions drawn in the OP are competition only assumptions to a modified game style that only apply to a small percentage of people who will be playing the game overall. A minor portion of this game’s audience and overall “community”, as you put it, is going to be looking for competition on the level you are filtering your impressions towards. To have a viable long term PC competition community people will likely restrict server rules and tune the game to be a better competitive experience anyway, inherently changing it compared to base state and only doing so on 1 of 3 platforms. That probably wasn’t initially clear to a general reader here though. It definitely wasn’t to me, as presented.

This info was presented as just a general hands on from someone with competition experience in the OP here, not impressions tailored for competition players (not your fault I understand). Due to that it can be seen as facts about the vanilla game by uninformed, non-PC, and non-competition players who stop by to find general info on a game they are researching (again, out of your control). When information presented with a specific intent, as you did to describe a game to a very hardcore portion of the possible audience, but is then taken and shown as a general impression on a site with people covering a wider spectrum of gamer types then misunderstanding is inevitable, imo. That is especially true given the “skim and re-report” era of game forums and copy/paste “game journalism” we have now.

That is why posts above focus instantly into things like “that sucks that the oprative sounds like he has useless abilities.” within 1 post. I appreciate you posting to clarify your position, hopefully it will give a bit better idea of the actual context of the information in the OP. :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Cinna;268491]Maybe the way I wrote it was confusing.
I am saying that pubbers that aren’t aware of competitive need to get aware of it for COMPETITIVE TO SUCCEED.
My apologies, didn’t mean for the game to succeed with that one.[/QUOTE]

Ah, that makes it more clear as well. Thanks. :smiley:

(Maawdawg) #27

Also, as far as the OHKs on medium bodies if you only got 37 XP it was a partial kill. That unusual number means someone else had already taken some of the enemy’s life before you got that shot on them so it wasn’t a full health bar in one shot but a OHK on a weakened enemy. XP is definitely given in a % damage done fashion after the kill is completed. I got a couple kills off people that had slivers of life left that were only worth a few XP in my time on the game. I don’t remember even seeing an exact round number of XP from killing anyone right now though, even if it was 50 per kill total spread among everyone doing the damage that means the 37 would give it a 75%+ damage range, which would make sense if it can OHK a light.

I suppose it may be possible OHK a medium body with the Barrett and an the Engineer’s damage buff though? Or maybe if you used all the modifications to up the damage when choosing your loadout as well? Though those could probably be countered with the bonus health from a medic buff or a terminal control point. That would all take some testing though. I didn’t even get to the Barrett in trying the guns yesterday. It was literally a buffet of guns that I wanted to try but the time didn’t allow for it.

(1234567) #28

Interesting post. Hope everything tells out as well as everyone hopes.

(DouglasDanger) #29

What is competitive gaming?

Your PC-elitist thing is very off-putting, but thank you for sharing your impressions.

We don’t have any idea what Brink will turn into when it is released. The first month of Black Ops was completely different from how things are now. I am a lowly pubbie greenie whatever you awesome PRO 1337 GAMER HEROES call “us” pubbies. Still, thanks for sharing your impressions.

(knippon) #30

did you try strafe jumping with the sticks?

(Cankor) #31

Generally you get 3rd party organizations which aren’t affiliated with any particular game creating leagues, matches, cups etc. This is where the structure comes from. Players who want to play comp will form a team and sign up for these leagues, ladders or whatever. In addition to setting rules and admining disputes, These organizations will generally offer ways for the teams to contact each other to schedule matches, report results, and keep track of where each team is in the standings.

TWL is one example of these types of organizations: http://www.teamwarfare.com

What is interesting about watching comp games is you get to see teams who have developed and practiced particular strategies and tactics, and it follows you see a level of teamwork and organization which isn’t possible in pub games (outside of maybe a clan playing all on one side who has competed before and has set roles and positions for all of the guys playing). You also see some extremely skillful players doing their thing. This is helpful for average skilled players (like myself), watching what they do and understanding why they do it can make you a better player and will help you bring your game to a new level.

Brink competition will use Stopwatch mode and should be very similar to ETQW in terms of how it works. If you want to get a taste of what these matches look like you can watch some VOD’s of past ETQW comp matches here:

http://www.bravehardt.com/TAW/Quake_Wars/DukeNukeM/Videos/

Brink competition will probably be very similar.

In addition to this type of competition some clans will set up intra clan matches. While these aren’t as serious they can be every bit as fun, maybe more fun for the more casual player because there’s not much stress involved. TAW does this regularly on ETQW where they play the game “as it was meant to be played” with full teams and no limitations on weapons or vehicles. Geezergaming did this recently with BC2 squad rush mode where we had an intra-clan league made up of 8 teams, and we’re very likely to do it again with Brink. These matches are hugely fun because you have a chance to develop strats, practice them, and try them out vs your fellow clan mates who are doing the same thing. After you’ve stratted, scrimmed, and played matches with the same guys for multiple matches week after week you develop much deeper friendships than you would just playing together randomly on the same server. I played with some geezers for months and only really got to know them after playing on the same teams with them in our GzR vs GzR BC2 squad rush league.

It’s really a lot of fun playing matches like this and I would recommend to anyone they join a clan that does this if they haven’t tried it before, it’s a total blast.

(EnderWiggin.DA.) #32

That’s for the writeup Cinna! I appreciate the time it took for you to write that up.

(Cankor) #33

[QUOTE=Maawdawg;268499]Also, as far as the OHKs on medium bodies if you only got 37 XP it was a partial kill. That unusual number means someone else had already taken some of the enemy’s life before you got that shot on them so it wasn’t a full health bar in one shot but a OHK on a weakened enemy. XP is definitely given in a % damage done fashion after the kill is completed. I got a couple kills off people that had slivers of life left that were only worth a few XP in my time on the game. I don’t remember even seeing an exact round number of XP from killing anyone right now though, even if it was 50 per kill total spread among everyone doing the damage that means the 37 would give it a 75%+ damage range, which would make sense if it can OHK a light.

I suppose it may be possible OHK a medium body with the Barrett and an the Engineer’s damage buff though? Or maybe if you used all the modifications to up the damage when choosing your loadout as well? Though those could probably be countered with the bonus health from a medic buff or a terminal control point. That would all take some testing though. I didn’t even get to the Barrett in trying the guns yesterday. It was literally a buffet of guns that I wanted to try but the time didn’t allow for it.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think you can assume how damaged the guy was based on the XP you got for killing him. Of course you would know better than me because you actually played, but if you get varying levels of XP based on where you kill the guy Coming out of spawn vs right next to the objective) and what he is doing (planting a bomb vs just running alone down a side alley) then it would be pretty hard to figure out unless you were the one actually playing and understood the context.

I read where Ham said you only get like 30XP for killing a guy where you get a couple hundred for giving out ammo. In one vid I saw a medic get 200 XP for tossing a syringe and another couple hundred when the guy used it. Compare that to 30 for killing someone. To me that’s skewed way to much. I mean if you are the guy sitting there mowing guys down, and there’s a guy behind you keeping you stocked with ammo, how is the guy who is doing the shooting less useful than the ammo humper? I don’t disagree with the concept (they said they don’t need to reward players at all for killing since guys will do that regardless), it just seems like maybe they have devalued killing too much.

Now granted, I know they are still playing with these things, so maybe they’ve already come to the same conclusion and those old amounts are completely different now.

Sorry I sort of veered off topic there :tongue:

(Maawdawg) #34

I am not assuming, kill XP is absolutely damage % based. I had that dev confirmed (by badman) while I was waiting to play the first time. If you do 80% of the damage you get 80% of the kill XP, etc. Who dealth the killing blow has no reflection on kill xp sharing. :slight_smile:

I played a ton of medic and syringe tosses to a downed opponent were 100 (iirc) and I don’t think I got more when he used it but I could be wrong. You may just get the flat rate whether he decides to use it or not. The heals and buffs were 75XP apiece. I am sure on the 75 as I was doing much more standing healing than picking up downed people. Healing and/or reviving the escort target were 75 each plus 5 xp each every couple seconds for everyone who was in the area “defending” him.

(LyndonL) #35

I’m liking the XP reward distribution :slight_smile: Sounds very fair and aimed at promoting teamwork. A visual reinforcing indication that you are doing well by the team will definitely keep teamplay healthy for pubbers who would otherwise go all lonewolf.

(Cankor) #36

[QUOTE=Maawdawg;268523]I am not assuming, kill XP is absolutely damage % based. I had that dev confirmed (by badman) while I was waiting to play the first time. If you do 80% of the damage you get 80% of the kill XP, etc. Who dealth the killing blow has no reflection on kill xp sharing. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]

I realize that, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the XP amount varies by where the guy is you damaged and what he’s doing. Supposedly you get a lot more XP for a guy who’s trying to do the objective (or guarding it or whatever) than for some guy who just ran out of the spawn 2 seconds ago.

[QUOTE=Maawdawg;268523]
I played a ton of medic and syringe tosses to a downed opponent were 100 (iirc) and I don’t think I got more when he used it but I could be wrong. You may just get the flat rate whether he decides to use it or not. The heals and buffs were 75XP apiece. I am sure on the 75 as I was doing much more standing healing than picking up downed people. Healing and/or reviving the escort target were 75 each plus 5 xp each every couple seconds for everyone who was in the area “defending” him.[/QUOTE]

yeah, not surprised if they lowered it. My comment was based on the vid where Jolly was playing medic, there’s lots of examples of guys getting revived in that vid so it’s pretty easy to see how much XP he was getting every time. Old vid of course.

(spoony_coot) #37

This is what is wrong with current shooters with objective based gameplay. When the bulk of the xp earned is from kills, players resort to a class where they can get the most kills instead of supporting the team. Kills become the number one priority while objectives and teamplay get pushed to 2nd or are ignored entirely.

I wrote a legthy post on a killzone forum. Outlining what changes were needed to to fix the xp system in Killzone 3 to encourage teamplay and make objectives important to the masses. Basicly everything that is requiered the devs are doing with brink. In Brink you are awarded for teamplay and playing your role. The second kills are worth more than anything else, lone wolves appear out of thin air.

(DouglasDanger) #38

Yeah, kills need to be worth considerably less than the objective and class specific stuff, or people will do everything they can to get as many kills as they can. Look at Black Ops. Ghost Pro + Hardened Pro or Sleight or Hand Pro + Hacker Pro or Ninja Pro with the ak74u or the Famas== that’s a huge percentage of the players’ loadouts and it is boring to play and boring to watch.

(spoony_coot) #39

[QUOTE=Cankor;268532]I realize that, that’s not what I’m saying at all. I’m saying the XP amount varies by where the guy is you damaged and what he’s doing. Supposedly you get a lot more XP for a guy who’s trying to do the objective (or guarding it or whatever) than for some guy who just ran out of the spawn 2 seconds ago.

yeah, not surprised if they lowered it. My comment was based on the vid where Jolly was playing medic, there’s lots of examples of guys getting revived in that vid so it’s pretty easy to see how much XP he was getting every time. Old vid of course.[/QUOTE]

It may seeem like they are dealing out a lot of xp, which they are, but you don’t know how much xp is required for unlocks. It may require a lot of xp, so it’s all relative, and I’m sure it’s balanced.

If you want a game with a lot of xp for kills, play a game with a team deathmatch mode. If you’re looking for a game that gives xp for playing your role and supporting your team, play Brink. I’m not saying kills are un-important, because they are neccessary for your own survival and to advance position, but they aren’t the goal of the game.

(Humate) #40

[QUOTE=spoony_coot;268549]This is what is wrong with current shooters with objective based gameplay. When the bulk of the xp earned is from kills, players resort to a class where they can get the most kills instead of supporting the team. Kills become the number one priority while objectives and teamplay get pushed to 2nd or are ignored entirely.
[/QUOTE]

It only becomes a number one priority if you follow an XP model to play a game.
There are moments you need to perform class actions, and there are moments you need to shoot people in the face. With that said, can you do any of these class actions while you’re incapacitated? :wink: