Chapel (Part 2) is a tragedy in map design.

(forthrightParrot) #1

Keep in mind, this post is STRICTLY about the final part of chapel, which in my opinion, needs to be redesigned.

Not only do the attackers have to play this part one man down, but they also have to walk PASSED the enemy spawn point to do so. This section of the map appears to be designed around trapping the enemy inside their spawn. NO map should be designed in this way for any reason.

In a skill for skill match up where both teams are equally matched, the attackers have little to no chance on this section. The attackers must be indisputably better than the defenders in order to have a chance with this objective.

An objective such as this, where the attackers are already suffering from multiple disadvantages, should be located on, at the VERY LEAST, neutral ground. Don’t misunderstand. I do think the defenders should have a closer spawn than the attackers. However, the actual objective zone should be a neutral zone.

My suggestion would be to move the entrance to the enemy spawn back a little and not facing the objective zone so that defenders actually have to leave their spawn to defend. Another suggestion would be to add more neutral cover inside the objective zones. Cover that can be used by defenders holding the zone as well as attackers who are able to take control of the zone.

Obviously I don’t assume my suggestions are the best, but something definitely needs to change with the current layout of the final zone in Chapel.

Edit: Before anyone makes a comment on it, Yes I have won on this map plenty of times both as an attacker and defender. The post is not about if it is possible to win or not. It is about the bad design choice of the final section. That is all its about.

(Mr-Penguin) #2

I mostly agree with this. The rest of the map is pretty good, but the final part seems horrid, especially when the enemy defending team is mostly made up of Skyhammers and Auras. The airstrike spam combined with healing stations allow the defenders to airstrike the attackers to oblivion, while the healing stations basically make them immortal. Even if one of the attackers manages to take out a healing station, it’s easily replaced and the attackers pushed back again.

Of course, if the attackers push hard and are fairly coordinated, they can also trap the defenders inside of their own spawn with explosive spam and quickly win the match. Even in the rare case that happens, that particular part of Chapel still seems incredibly biased towards the defenders in general, and I do agree with your proposed changes.

(triteTongs) #3

Does your attacking team have, oh, I don’t know… Skyhammers and Auras as well?
A single skyhammer nade can demolish an entire defending team.

All it takes is one good push to take them out. Most often that push can linger enough for the second bomb to make it to the objective. It’s really about killing a few of their players and then capitalizing on that push.

What the map normally lacks is simple teamwork. There’s a sense of “KDR matters” when people play and won’t start an attack OR follow an attack.

But that’s its charm. Church is the most intense map and my most favorite map BECAUSE of this ending. I don’t really have a problem with the defenders spawn being so close to the objective.

[quote=“forthrightParrot;10963”]
Another suggestion would be to add more neutral cover inside the objective zones. Cover that can be used by defenders holding the zone as well as attackers who are able to take control of the zone.
.[/quote]

Thats EXACTLY what that Double Decker bus is for. Putting a healing station on the other side of that as an attacker can be incredibly powerful. Using that + the bridge you can enable can really turn the tide of battle. That bridge is pretty deceptive. It feels useless but it’s actually incredibly powerful when used right.

(xAvenger) #4

[/quote]

Thats EXACTLY what that Double Decker bus is for. Putting a healing station on the other side of that as an attacker can be incredibly powerful. Using that + the bridge you can enable can really turn the tide of battle. That bridge is pretty deceptive. It feels useless but it’s actually incredibly powerful when used right.
[/quote]

I agree, that bridge is extremely key. Have it lowered and hide up there at the end with the objective until you can pick off attackers, jump down and deliver the objective.

(goodField) #5

I noticed a lot of the issues with Chapel isn’t the map, but the people playing it.

My first experience as an attacker with this map was intense and immensely fun. We got tot he final objective and go to push.

We dunk the first EMP into the objective and the Defending team realized that they actually need to defend, so they swarm the Rock Garden and the Double Decker with Auras, Skyhammers, and Sawbonez to keep us out.

I got the 2nd EMP to the objective a few times on my own but never really made any progress. With a Minute left, I finally go looking for my Push-To-Talk key and I tell my team that if we can take the Rock, we can win.

I grab the EMP, and shout into the VOIP, “PUSH!” while I take off towards the objective as Kira. I get all the way there to find my team was actually trying to push them out but wasn’t having any luck, I run right up the middle, drop the objective, turn and drop and Orbital Laser, and wipe the entire defending team by sweeping it down the back alley. I grab the objective, and with 3 seconds on the clock, deliver the EMP that wins the game.

If you have a mic, you only have yourself to blame for not using it to communicate with your teammates. I usually hate the idiom, because the answers tend to have more nuiance, but in this case it literally is:

L2P

(opicr0n) #6

I agree with posters above that its more an team issue than map design. Surely the team has reviewed the years of play data to come up with this final(?) design. Its about holding various spots and making a way for the carrier.

As on most maps when the attacking team plays too defensive, or too agressive, the objective fails. Except when the team in question is a lot higher skilled.

(goodField) #7

I know that I’ve found Chapel to be a cake walk when I play Proxy and I use her to push the EV and run the Objective. I think the only loss I’ve had as an attacker on Chapel was the Defenders disabling the EV a few feet from the end of the objective, and then pushing us back around the corner.

(refinedSlide) #8

The map’s not really the problem. In my experience, it’s fair for both attackers and defenders as long as both teams are on the same page. It works when people play to the objective and co-op, rather than team deathmatch the whole thing.

For what it’s worth, I find Bushwhacker pretty useful in both situations.

(Ghosthree3) #9

The last part of Chapel is massively in the Attackers favour IMO. It’s the only bad part of the map, because Attackers are favoured so much.

(LANshark) #10

[quote=“derpypenguinz19;21001”]I mostly agree with this. The rest of the map is pretty good, but the final part seems horrid, especially when the enemy defending team is mostly made up of Skyhammers and Auras. The airstrike spam combined with healing stations allow the defenders to airstrike the attackers to oblivion, while the healing stations basically make them immortal. Even if one of the attackers manages to take out a healing station, it’s easily replaced and the attackers pushed back again.

Of course, if the attackers push hard and are fairly coordinated, they can also trap the defenders inside of their own spawn with explosive spam and quickly win the match. Even in the rare case that happens, that particular part of Chapel still seems incredibly biased towards the defenders in general, and I do agree with your proposed changes.[/quote]

i love playing through chapel until this point. i feel like this part is asking both teams to throw as many explosives as they can at the other and whoever loses won’t go near the objective for the rest of the game. Its sad but could probably be fixed by butting some of the final part under cover. Just put a roof on part of this stage and the map is great. It’s still my favorite though.

(Ghosthree3) #11

What you’re suggesting would make it so much harder for attackers to win this part. What makes attackers so favoured at this stage is the airstrikes.

(Szakalot) #12

you are kidding right?

the only part that is in attacker’s favor is the easiness of spawncamp. If the defense knows what they are doing, and keep pushing out - you will never even get close to the obj. Thats of course for those 7v7, 8v8 servers where locking down the frontal chokepoints is a matter of firepower volume

(Ghosthree3) #13

[quote=“Szakalot;34697”]you are kidding right?

the only part that is in attacker’s favor is the easiness of spawncamp. If the defense knows what they are doing, and keep pushing out - you will never even get close to the obj. Thats of course for those 7v7, 8v8 servers where locking down the frontal chokepoints is a matter of firepower volume
[/quote]
The way I see it played out often is attackers simply have to line up a good air strike - or better, cross line 2 up - and/or land some nades behind rock/bus and they get in easy. Once they’re in the game is theirs, especially if they have Fragger/Nader, since they can effortlessly lock defense in their spawn area for deliveries.

(KangaJoo) #14

The last part of the map is interesting. The defenders only have one very open exit to their spawn but to make up for that the attackers have to cross directly in front of their spawn without having much cover. To be honest I’ve always disliked how much this design encourages explosive spam and spawn camping but for reasons others have already mentioned, I wouldn’t say the map is unbalanced.

Some things I think they should for sure change is they should add an ammo crate that’s easier for the defenders to get to and that they should add some cover to the middle of the map so the defenders don’t instantly get trapped in either spawn or the rock/bus area as soon as the attackers push up past the two main entrances.