Change supply meter so that getting killed isn't an advantage


(Verticae) #61

Your argument is that you should value your virtual life. The alternative is to value the ability to make decisions based on the needs, capabilities and current tactical situation of your team. Hence, intentional suicide is a teamplay-based decision. Though I’ll admit that unless they bring a respawn timer and /kill (or unlock /incap) into Brink, the value of it is neglectable.

EDIT: Also, zenstar is correct. If you wouldn’t use a system based upon two DDR dancepads, it’d be far too difficult to develop it for consoles. Obviously.


(zenstar) #62

[QUOTE=Verticae;377156]Your argument is that you should value your virtual life. The alternative is to value the ability to make decisions based on the needs, capabilities and current tactical situation of your team. Hence, intentional suicide is a teamplay-based decision. Though I’ll admit that unless they bring a respawn timer and /kill (or unlock /incap) into Brink, the value of it is neglectable.

EDIT: Also, zenstar is correct. If you wouldn’t use a system based upon two DDR dancepads, it’d be far too difficult to develop it for consoles. Obviously.[/QUOTE]

You could line the inside of a box and use 5 mats (you’d need to see out one side) for maximum control.

Also: Your argument creates a false dichotomy.
“Your argument is that you should value your virtual life. The alternative is to value the ability to make decisions based on the needs, capabilities and current tactical situation of your team.”
ahould read
“Your argument is that you should value your virtual life. An alternative is to value the ability to make decisions based on the needs, capabilities and current tactical situation of your team.”
Just because you don’t value your virtual life it does not necessarily follow that you value “the ability to make etc…”. You might value getting the most kills or getting the most xp or running.

It’s a minor point though.


(tokamak) #63

Your argument is that you should value your virtual life. The alternative is to value the ability to make decisions based on the needs, capabilities and current tactical situation of your team. Hence, intentional suicide is a teamplay-based decision.

It’s as much a solo-based deciscion as people run to where the most xp/kills/fame can be won. Making lives more important only moves the focus from deciding whether or not killing yourself is profitable to how best to use your compromised life as profitable as possible which frankly involves a bit more intellect than hitting that /kill keybind.


(DarkangelUK) #64

Self kill in other games meant you were losing things that you had gained within that life, e.g. Quake 3 you could be losing armour, additional weapons, ammo, health etc… important things that you want to hang onto, but at the end of the day, you weren’t penalized against your default load out for it self-killing. Brink has no real gain to hang onto, possibly because your starting load out is already a lucrative value to have. Everything from the life is small gains… a health pip, weapon buff, stuff that doesn’t have any significant value, so there really is no loss to killing… but that shouldn’t mean you’re penalized because your life has no value to retain except for location.


(.Chris.) #65

To be honest all those buffs do matter and losing them on death does penalise you quite a bit if you spawn alone and don’t get them back in good time, without added health or increased weapon damage you’re pretty much screwed when you come up against someone who does have those buffs.


(DarkangelUK) #66

I don’t find that tbh, you can selfbuff at least one portion unless you’re a cov ops, and well depending on your team you’re lucky to have the other buffs to begin with… but a good team will buff you in no time, it’s not like the gains are any great effort to obtain, therefore no effort is lost when you die.

That’s just my thoughts, I never feel like I’ve lost anything significant anyway.


(aviynw) #67
  1. Anyone arguing that self kill isn’t valuable sometimes is just plain wrong with a capital T. If you’re in a game and your whole team or most of your team dies except you right before the spawn I don’t see how you can argue otherwise. In some maps the spawn is very close to the objective, as well as spawn-times long (I’m thinking of the second objective in container city as resistance now, where both are true).

If you are by yourself or are significantly out-numbered getting additional kills with your life won’t make any difference because enemy medics can just revive them. Additionally, if you’re spawning with the rest of your team you will get your buffs back anyways as well as replenish your teammates who are re-spawning ANYWAYS.

And even if your not re-spawning with EVRERYONE, you probably didn’t spawn with everyone the time before that either, if you had buffs then you’ll probably get them now.

  1. Even ignoring all the things I said in 1. Even if you had full buffs, start with none, and for some reason will get none from your teammates, a lot of the time it will still be worth it to respawn because supplies are that valuable, especially as a medic. Maybe, not for you, but for your TEAM

  2. There are 3 situations when /kill becomes valuable. I don’t think its a tactic that goes against the spirit of the game when you do it to respawn with your team. I do think think its a tactic that goes against the spirit of the game when you do it to beat the spawn timer, and to refill your supply meter.

This is a team-based fps, and as such the skill of knowing when you are outnumbered and that getting kills is pointless should be included, but this is not a rhythm game about memorizing timings, and this is not a game that should reward killing yourself when you ARE still a threat.

When you are still a threat, and you can get VALUABLE kills by staying alive, and STILL decide to kill yourself for supplies, that’s when it becomes dumb, but unfortunately now it is sometimes the better thing to do.


(tokamak) #68

This is a team-based fps, and as such the skill of knowing when you are outnumbered and that getting kills is pointless should be included, but this is not a rhythm game about memorizing timings, and this is not a game that should reward killing yourself when you ARE still a threat.

It’s completely trivial. Low hp/low ammo = self kill. New objective = self kill. Team somewhere else = self kill. It’s a stupid mechanic altogether. Free teleports and restock on the house!


(DarkangelUK) #69

Free teleport = usually further away from the objective
Low hp/low ammo = no excuse for that one, regenerates and command posts hand out ammo, maybe low pips?
New objective = cut scene respawns you for the new objective
Team somewhere else = selfkill? really? to be put back at spawn still no where near team mates?


(VG_JUNKY) #70

Team somewhere else = selfkill? really? to be put back at spawn still no where near team mates?

Think… Security Tower… blowup at HE charge when it detonates ( 1st obj ) quickly ready to hack the 2nd obj

PS I think self killings alright, they usually r penelized ( they arent usually close to the battle )
also if the OP got what they wished… CCity spawn trap = ****in nightmare without replenishing pips ( for security )

this wouldn’t help the game


(Stormchild) #71

Except in some cases like after first obj of Sec Tower (one of the map flaws imo : confuses new players, and gives an edge to people who have lucky respawn just after obj is done).

edit : VG_junky beat me to it.


(INF3RN0) #72

Eum… self-kill to restore supply is perfectly fine and not understanding it’s importance and science in all past sd games is a bit ignorant. You sacrifice your position on the map to re-gain supply. Now this is extremely risky and a very clear trade off situation. For example a medic who respawns will have to travel back to his teammates to revive them, same with any other class action, as there is now a measurable distance between them. In that time your teammates may be dead and gibbed. It is entirely a tactical decision that in fact does have very negative results at times. The advantage of this mechanic however, is that it allows players to be much more offensive in their game play and potentially gain a push advantage. Being able to take advantage of downtime to quickly resupply is perfectly fine. Brink had command posts for this, which in fact allowed a fast resupply mid-map, but a full respawn would set you back at your spawn. Geez that seems to make good mathematical sense I think?

Respawning promotes team play, simple as pie. Of all the things that SD cut, they never seemed to realize that not being able to respawn on command severely punishes both the player and their team in a very non-team play oriented manner. Firstly, players are much more inclined to play less self-preservantly when they know they have some moderate control over the timing of their death. You focus purely on the objectives, and not for your own life on the battlefield. Secondly, yes poor positioning is a great reason to suicide and re-group with your team on the fly. There is absolutely nothing added by removing the feature in this situation except pure frustration on both your own and your teams side. It is so much easier to re-organize your team with the push of a button, and again it is entirely focused on what these games were designed for. Lastly, and in relation to the first point, the fact that each individual player has a spawn timer and control over the timing of their death means that they have no reason not to be more team focused. It’s the biggest cookie in the team-play coaxing arsenal. If the game is about winning objectives and nothing to do with kills, then a player should be able to understand that the respawn key is their best friend. You can maximize your time on the battlefield simply by paying attention to the spawn timer, and judging the situation your in. You won’t see nearly as much camping, but instead more overall activity from your team. The goal should not be personal survival, but instead maximum output of efficiency. Do your damage, judge the situation, and respawn if you think it’s the most beneficial decision for your team. Support classes are there to directly fuel the frontline, but respawning is the primordial soup of the whole spawn timer mechanic. The situations where your support teammates cannot resupply you or are out of position is also a perfectly sensible reason to respawn, and again you sacrifice your positioning for supplies.

The only reason why anyone should argue against this mechanic is if you don’t understand it’s function, your all about realism (though suicide is real…), or have some diluted concept that it will be more tactical to punish people with 30 second spawns. Topics like these are what made Brink what it is… people suggest so many awful ideas to SD and then they listen. There’s so many examples in Brink that were results of a similar outlook on game play mechanics like this one. The tunnel vision analysis of so many important game-play mechanics from past games simply prevails on this forum…


(VG_JUNKY) #73

edit : VG_junky beat me to it.

hehe oppss :smiley:


(aviynw) #74

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;377408]
Eum… self-kill to restore supply is perfectly fine and not understanding it’s importance and science in all past sd games is a bit ignorant. You sacrifice your position on the map to re-gain supply. Now this is extremely risky and a very clear trade off situation. For example a medic who respawns will have to travel back to his teammates to revive them, same with any other class action, as there is now a measurable distance between them. In that time your teammates may be dead and gibbed. It is entirely a tactical decision that in fact does have very negative results at times. [/QUOTE]

In ET you didn’t run out of revive syringes and grenade throws didn’t use supplies, two big reasons why supplies are much more important in Brink than in ET. In ET self-kill was only a good tactic if you were about to die or some other ****ty situation, NOT if you were doing ok, but simply ran out of supplies.


(Verticae) #75
  • [li]Respawning on teammates[/li][li]class change[/li][li]mortar ammo[/li][li]forward spawn cap[/li][li]maximizing effective playtime[/li][li]charge resupply

Seriously, no reason at all. :stuck_out_tongue:


(aviynw) #76

Well I don’t think it really made sense to /kill in et to just re-supply yourself for the reasons I said already (except for motor, which there are none in Brink).

To be clear I’m not arguing against /kill I’m mainly arguing against the supply situation, which I don’t think existed in et.


(INF3RN0) #77

[QUOTE=aviynw;377433]Well I don’t think it really made sense to /kill in et to just re-supply yourself for the reasons I said already (except for motor, which there are none in Brink).

To be clear I’m not arguing against /kill I’m mainly arguing against the supply situation, which I don’t think existed in et.[/QUOTE]

Supply respawns are a bit more common in ETQW I’ll admit, as I was simply saying “past games”, but the overall point was that respawning serves an important purpose. Also should be clear that in some parts of my post “resupply” also means player health/ammo. Resupplying is not the biggest reason to respawn, but that was not what I was getting at. The point being is that respawning is essential to the game play for multiple reasons. What happens in these kinds of topics about game mechanics is that the casual player views a mechanic in such a simplistic form and in a specific situation that they deem it to be bad for the game play, when in reality it takes away much more than it gains or it was never even an actual game breaking problem. Brink is inarguable the culmination of bad ideas from issues in past games that should have never been taken seriously.


(Humate) #78

Trivial in a pub game 12v12 :wink:
You’re not thinking in terms of team in a pub, youre thinking about how you benefit.
And even if you were thinking of team, you being away from the action on a respawn, isnt going to have a massive effect on the outcome as there are so many players to take your role in the meantime.

6v6 however is a different story altogether.
In fact Ive had team-mates bitch about the amount of respawns we used to take, because they (the less skilled players) couldnt defend themselves, they would get bullied. The way around this is - teams either respawn together or you make the call that youre respawning, so that the less skilled players on your team know to either lift their intensity, or hide and not engage the enemy. In stopwatch you dont have the luxury of waiting :wink: so if they choose to wait and hide, that becomes an additional cost. If a team decides to respawn together, the amount of time it takes to get back in addition to allowing the defence to set up position becomes the cost.

Thats the reality of /kill. Whether you appreciate that or not, is a different thing altogether :slight_smile:


(Spendlove) #79

Out of interest, is it only PC players that want the self kill command to be implemented?

Someone somewhere suggested a suicide pill universal ability? That seemed to go down well. Those that wanted to use the tactic could. But it’s going to cost you an ability slot.


(gooey79) #80

Pun intended?

:slight_smile: