Can we have a serious discussion about weapon consistency?

[watsyurdeal]

What do I mean by this? Well there are a number of things wrong with how the weapons are currently.

1. Recoil Patterns

Only certain guns have an actual pattern to where the recoil will tug on your crosshair. The Timik and M4 both have a / pattern, the bullets spitting out in a certain direction is spread, and is not the issue I am pointing out. The issue I have is the Machine Guns, SMGs, Pistols, Machine Pistols, and some rifles do not have a consistent pattern. I wish this would be changed, because in my mind it makes zero sense for some guns to have this feature and some not. And seeing as how removing them in favor of more randomness added to the game is a terrible decision, I propose we fix this problem asap.

2. Tap firing should be tweaked

One thing that really urks me, is that certain guns simply do not have good tapfire. By this I mean the way spread contracts or reduces after the player has stopped firing, is not fast enough or fair enough for certain weapons. The K 121 for example, I would much rather this gun have high bloom per shot if it meant I could squeeze out one or two rounds at a time, from the hip, with reasonable results.

Using Amerika’s video to show what I am trying to get across, my issue isn’t how fast the gun blooms, but how fast it recovers from said bloom. If you want to discourage spraying from the hip with certain weapons, that’s fine, but at least make tap firing or accurate shot placement rewarding instead of a hassle.

Off the top of my head, those are the two main things, but there are many more imo that we should really talk about here. This game is fun but still certain things seem random at times, it be nice if we can make this game as raw as possible when it comes to the skill required to play it.

[ShotgunRagtime]

Many games that are considered tactical and skill based utilize a mix of predictable and unpredictable recoil patterns as a means of balancing weapons. So I really think people get this “RNG decides winner” BS in their head when it just isn’t true. Random recoil FORCES players to excercise trigger control as they can’t just aim low or to the left/right.

So naturally the M4 and Timik have predictable recoil because they are designed to be the most accurate automatic weapons in the game – that is their strong suit.

However, I feel like some weapons should have predictable recoil and others not. It comes down to balance really.

[Ctrix]

Regarding the recoil pattern. How recoil works in games is by random number deviation. Each shot has a certain degree in which the recoil will reallign the gun. Let’s take Battlefield 3 guns because I can use actual numbers and not guesswork. It’s fairly similar. (Credit to Symthic.com)

This is the recoil pattern of the M16A3 in Battlefield 3, which is a very close approximation to the M4A1 in this game.
What these numbers mean is that after one shot, the recoil will move the gun to anywhere between .1 degree to the left, and .4 degrees to the right, as well as anywhere up to .26 upwards. The other two numbers are the recoil “settle” and the first shot multiplier. First shot multiplier means the first shot in an automatic burst is multiplied by this amount.

The reason the M16A3 was the top tier gun for the majority of people was the very predictable recoil. Which was designed like this on purpose. It makes the gun good at medium range, because you can do long, accurate bursts.

Now let’s take a look at one of the more “close quarters” guns in BF3
AEK: Considered “the” definitive close quarter assault rifle. But still an assault rifle, and by that definition, considered a medium to close range weapon. Considere “unique” in that among all the rifles, it is the only one which pulls consistently to the left

A-91: Carbine for the Engineer class. The weapon of choice for close proximity urban maps, akin to the AEK. Engineer weapons are more Personal Defence weapons than anything else, they are lighter and through that, more close range focused. They occupy a middle ground between Assault Rifles and SMGs

MP-7: Classed a PDW in the game, really they meant SMGs. Specifically designed for fighting inside buildings. Longest ideal engagement range is a hallway.

Do you see how the recoil patterns in Dirty Bomb make sense?

[watsyurdeal]

@Citrix

Yes, I can see why but I simply disagree with the logic that random recoil deviation should be a balancing tool for weapons. Having the gun feel rewarding and consistent is more important for skill floor and skill ceiling, the player learns what the gun is capable of and how it behaves. If it does something that feels random to the player, it ruins the shooting experience because it leaves a lot of it to chance.

If they want to force people to use SMGs like close quarters weapons then maybe they should look at how their range mechanic works, because arguably that is another issue in itself. You hear a lot of talk about people sniping with the Hochfir for example, why is that? And why is it not being looked into more?

I understand what they are trying to accomplish but the sake of making the game competitive, if that is indeed their goal, they should remove as much inconsistency as reasonably possible. So real aim is what determines fights, not because the recoil jerked too much to the left or right at the wrong time, or that the spread expanded too much on the 4th or 5th bullet.

I don’t see any reason why this would be a bad thing, I can only see it improving the game overall.

[Ctrix]

Because game design is hard.
Battlefield is a high budget title and they do it like that. That’s all I can tell you about the matter.

[Sir_Slam]

When making a comp oriented game, any RNG not cut out is a mistake.

[ShotgunRagtime]

@Watsyurdeal The range dropoff mechanic is in the game, and it works. I notice it quite regularly, and quite frankly, if you’re terrible enough to lose a long-range gunfight to “Hochfir sniping” that’s a whole nother issue.

If the Crotzni had a defined recoil pattern like the M4, it would literally be a strictly better weapon unless they crippled its range, which would create a mess of map balancing issues. The M4 and Timik’s primary features are predictable recoil. That is what gives them an edge over the SMG’s besides a nominal range boost.

Acting like gunfights are decided by recoil RNG is trivializing the entire gunfight to the point of… well, pointlessness.

If you control your trigger, you will land your shots. This is how the game works. If you spray, you will miss some. There’s no use in saying “well it’s not fair that RNG decided my shot would miss” when you should of just waited for recoil to settle.

The gunplay is fine. If every gun had predictable recoil like the M4, the game would be broken. Have fun fighting a K121 with a designated pattern

[torsoreaper]

I find that I get a lot of headshots by just listening for the “tink” noise and adjusting for my recoil to make the noise. Kind of hard to explain but you can kind of “feel” where the shots are going by what noises you’re getting from the feedback system.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“ShotgunRagtime;119069”]@Watsyurdeal The range dropoff mechanic is in the game, and it works. I notice it quite regularly, and quite frankly, if you’re terrible enough to lose a long-range gunfight to “Hochfir sniping” that’s a whole nother issue.

If the Crotzni had a defined recoil pattern like the M4, it would literally be a strictly better weapon unless they crippled its range, which would create a mess of map balancing issues. The M4 and Timik’s primary features are predictable recoil. That is what gives them an edge over the SMG’s besides a nominal range boost.

Acting like gunfights are decided by recoil RNG is trivializing the entire gunfight to the point of… well, pointlessness.

If you control your trigger, you will land your shots. This is how the game works. If you spray, you will miss some. There’s no use in saying “well it’s not fair that RNG decided my shot would miss” when you should of just waited for recoil to settle.

The gunplay is fine. If every gun had predictable recoil like the M4, the game would be broken. Have fun fighting a K121 with a designated pattern[/quote]

So in other words if SMGs were damaging up close but terrible from afar that’d make it balanced vs the M4? Huh, sounds like the ideal thing to go for then doesn’t it?

The K 121, it already spreads out pretty fast when you try to spray it, forcing people tapfire from the hip and making full auto only useful when aiming down sights seems like another fair compromise.

Plus you’re not factoring in the raw damage numbers, a gun can be strictly better than another up close or better at a distance.

The M4 for example could have a slower rof and slightly lower damage than the timik, but if the Timik had a better rof and slightly more damage, you get a very clear distinction between the two.

The problem wouldn’t be that every gun would be broken, it’d be that there is simply not enough meat there to distinguish the downsides and upsides to each gun. It is the same problem every gun has, they try to make one gun that’s jack of all trades and it ends up being overpowered compared to everything else.

If the Rifles, Burst Rifles, Dreiss vs Grandeur, SMGs, and Shotguns all had clear pros and cons with no clear all around winner, then they’d be fixed.

I don’t think it’s at all impossible, and I certainly don’t think it’s unreasonable.

And to say that RNG doesn’t matter is ignoring the problem, all RNG does is make things easier for newer players by giving the veterans more to compensate for, and often times, they can’t. You can’t compensate for a recoil pattern that doesn’t exist, that’s why it’s random. You can’t tap fire properly when the gun blooms so fast per shot that it’s difficult to kill someone before you can consistently place accurate shots.

[ShotgunRagtime]

The SMG’s ARE bad at range, which is something you continually want to deny. They are statistically inferior to rifles, but not UNUSABLE, which is what it seems you want them to be.

It doesn’t matter how bad a gun’s recoil is, if it has a pattern it is quite controllable at essentially any range. This is just a fact, and I’m sure you know this if you’ve played most any other FPS game with recoil patterns.

DB’s system is great. SMG’s are usable at all map ranges, not optimal, not terrible. This allows for quality encounters that aren’t instantly decided by each fighter’s gun.

Giving some guns predictable patterns and others random patterns is a system that has worked in most tactical FPS games, it works here too.

[Jostabeere]

@Ctrix So you were not fine with having RNG in an event and a minor part of the game, but you’re totally fine with RNG in the core-mechanic of the game?

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“ShotgunRagtime;119084”]The SMG’s ARE bad at range, which is something you continually want to deny. They are statistically inferior to rifles, but not UNUSABLE, which is what it seems you want them to be.

It doesn’t matter how bad a gun’s recoil is, if it has a pattern it is quite controllable at essentially any range. This is just a fact, and I’m sure you know this if you’ve played most any other FPS game with recoil patterns.

DB’s system is great. SMG’s are usable at all map ranges, not optimal, not terrible. This allows for quality encounters that aren’t instantly decided by each fighter’s gun.

Giving some guns predictable patterns and others random patterns is a system that has worked in most tactical FPS games, it works here too.[/quote]

So hold on for a second, so you’re saying that if every gun in the game had a consistent pattern, they’d all be broken? And if we simply tweak the guns to have differing range, where headshots would deal ever so slightly less damage and body shots even more so, one to two or more, it would make them unsuable?

I’m sorry but I’m not understanding how that it possible when SMGs are already amazing up close and would be just as amazing just more consistent and easier to tap shots at a distance, particularly when aiming down sights.

Keep in mind that ttk takes more into account than just dps, it also will account for burst damage (shotguns and semi auto rifles are key there). It also takes into account spread and effective range of the guns, what angle the bullet exits the gun at to guarantee a shot to land.

If you think I am asking for every gun to be sniper pinpoint accurate on the first shot that is not the case, if the Crotzni nerf should have taught us anything is that the initial starting accuracy is a major competent that determines how good a gun is at a distance. And not only that, the bloom also controls how good it is up close. All the devs would have to do is give SMGs a faster ttk up close, whereas rifles due to their design, would beat out SMGs at medium range due to higher burst damage and better accuracy.

You seem to think I want to break the game’s weapons, but that’s not all the case, I simply want to remove as much of the randomness as possible so it comes to things players can control. Positioning, spraying, aim, movement, timing, all these things and more should be what determines fights.

If you need any more evidence of what I am getting at, look at how many Naders and Sawbonez have switched from the Crotzni, to the SMG 9, simply because it’s less random. THAT is what I mean, players want the option to pick and choose a gun based purely on it’s playstyle rather than what is objectively better in almost every scenario. Remove that random factor and what you get is more niche and less generalization, every loadout has a distinct feel to it, every gun has a soul of it’s own that players may gravitate toward for specific reasons.

[triteCherry]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;119094”]All the devs would have to do is give SMGs a faster ttk up close, whereas rifles due to their design, would beat out SMGs at medium range due to higher burst damage and better accuracy.
[/quote]

So assault rifles would be worse then SMGs at close range then?

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“triteCherry;119098”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;119094”]All the devs would have to do is give SMGs a faster ttk up close, whereas rifles due to their design, would beat out SMGs at medium range due to higher burst damage and better accuracy.
[/quote]

So assault rifles would be worse then SMGs at close range then?[/quote]

Yep, pretty much, slower ttk up close assuming all shots land, whereas the Rifles would be better at a distance.

Of course health differences play a huge factor in that as well.

[ShotgunRagtime]

Why do you keep denying that there’s range dripoff? I’m getting tired of “debating” when you just want to act delusional. It’s there. It alters shots to kill. It works.

Unpredictable patterns prevent players fron learning a pattern and then becoming unstoppable at any range with them. The other way to accomplish this is to nuke damage over range, which puts SMG users at a serious disadvantage and screws up map balance.

DB uses a combination of random recoil and moderate dropoff to create a balanced environment where every gun performs, just some better than others. Give every gun a pattern, and the one with the highest DPS will always win. Look at CSGO’s stale meta for reference.

Tip: the skill often comes from, you guessed it, laying off the trigger and waiting for bloom to settle, knowing when to ADS and when to hold fire. This requires a bit more skill than just aiming at your target’s chest and sweeping upwards through him.

I just wonder when the DB community will realize that the devs implemented the systems they did for a reason.

[triteCherry]

Yep, pretty much, slower ttk up close assuming all shots land, whereas the Rifles would be better at a distance.

So basically SMGs would be a little bit better then shotguns?

[Ctrix]

You tell em ShotgunRagtime. Better than I could’ve ever said it.

And @Jostabeere for having such a high post count I sure have never noticed you saying anything of value. Your post here is irrelevant, a fallacy, a topic-derailment, I could go on.
To be brief, don’t continue your line of argument. If you feel like replying, please PM me, don’t clutter this thread.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“ShotgunRagtime;119104”]Why do you keep denying that there’s range dripoff? I’m getting tired of “debating” when you just want to act delusional. It’s there. It alters shots to kill. It works.

Unpredictable patterns prevent players fron learning a pattern and then becoming unstoppable at any range with them. The other way to accomplish this is to nuke damage over range, which puts SMG users at a serious disadvantage and screws up map balance.

DB uses a combination of random recoil and moderate dropoff to create a balanced environment where every gun performs, just some better than others. Give every gun a pattern, and the one with the highest DPS will always win. Look at CSGO’s stale meta for reference.

Tip: the skill often comes from, you guessed it, laying off the trigger and waiting for bloom to settle, knowing when to ADS and when to hold fire. This requires a bit more skill than just aiming at your target’s chest and sweeping upwards through him.

I just wonder when the DB community will realize that the devs implemented the systems they did for a reason.[/quote]

@ShotgunRagtime

Probably because when you understand what Unreal Units amounts to in code, and you realize how the maps are for the most part close to medium range you have to wonder what the other person is on.

An Unreal Unit is 2 cm, so if we have to [url=“http://dirtybomb.wikia.com/wiki/Dirty_Bomb_Wiki”]look at the wiki, 950 and 1900 respectfully. When you take into account how much that is in the game, yea, that’s quite ridiculous when you think about it. Plus, do headshots suffer a damage falloff penalty? Cause if not that’s another issue, the 276 to 368 ms ttk, you’re killing people before they even get a chance to fire back.

Explain to me again how range is in effect?

This is an issue because the sightlines in the maps, in case you didn’t notice, are quite large. Underground on the first point you can see all the way into attackers spawn from the top of the point as well as on the sides, meaning you can shoot them down long before they can get close to the point. And considering sprint and other factors…yea.

This stuff adds up, so it’s not that I’m ignoring it, I’m telling you that it doesn’t do enough in it’s current state.

[quote=“triteCherry;119105”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;119100”]
Yep, pretty much, slower ttk up close assuming all shots land, whereas the Rifles would be better at a distance.
[/quote]

So basically SMGs would be a little bit better then shotguns?

[/quote]

They already are though

Shotguns are a separate issue that needs a whole other discussion as well.

Like Rates of Fire, Damage, spray pattern, etc. @Eox knows all this far too well.

[Jostabeere]

[quote=“Ctrix;119110”]You tell em ShotgunRagtime. Better than I could’ve ever said it.

And @Jostabeere for having such a high post count I sure have never noticed you saying anything of value. Your post here is irrelevant, a fallacy, a topic-derailment, I could go on.
To be brief, don’t continue your line of argument. If you feel like replying, please PM me, don’t clutter this thread.[/quote]

Why is it a topic derailment? You made a post and said the recoil being based off RNG is fine.
It is a core-mechanic of the game and shouldn’t be RNG. Just because EA or DICE are doing this (Which are both a horrible game dev team and a greedy, bad publisher imo) doesn’t change the fact it’s a pretty bad mechanic.

[spoiler]P.S. Thanks for insulting me. But it doesn’t change the fact I was right about it and just because you don’t understand certain things like irony or dislike them, doesn’t make them irrelevant.[/spoiler]

@ShotgunRagtime They implemented it on exactly two weapons and not all or none for a reason? Don’t really believe that since it makes 0 sense why some guns have a mechanic and some don’t. And what’s so bad about being unstoppable once you’ve learned a core-mechanic? Every player can do this. There is nothing wrong with learning mechanics to get better.

[ShotgunRagtime]

I don’t care what sort of backwards logic you want to use to prove that range isn’t a factor in combat. It is. I notice it everytime I engage a target longrange with an SMG, even when I’m ADS’d and landing every shot. Why would it even be in the game since literally the earliest alpha if it wasn’t a factor?

And I also don’t care what sort of smokescreen argument you want to put up about sightlines because you can’t find a relevent point.

You wanted a discussion? There’s your discussion. Not everyone will agree with your assertions about recoil, which you’ve made a dozen times already on the forums. I would not doubt that the dev team, the ones who ought to know best, most likely share several of the same beliefs I’ve posted here, hence their decision to use this system.

Sorry if I come off as an asshole, but this entire debate is really just getting on my nerves and I’ll politely see myself out now, as I’ve said what I felt should be said. Get someone else’s opinion now.