Burst rifles Nerf

(Dawnlazy) #21

Kinda agree, M4 is really comfy from long range but I still think that they should increase the effective range a bit to the same level as other assault rifles.

(JJMAJR) #22

My main problem with the burst rifles is that they can only be countered by forcing a player into an arbitrarily long range. They do more than enough burst damage to take down light health classes that would use shotguns in the first place, and can still put up an insane amount of DPS in ranges that the Crotzni stops being viable at.

Burst rifles aren’t as powerful as a sniper rifle in long-range combat, but they surely can only be countered by them.

(Dawnlazy) #23

Well that’s the whole purpose of an assault rifle. SMGs are strictly inferior to them, this is for balance purposes. If your merc has a Crotzni, it’s because whatever ability they have is supposed to compensate for the inferior weaponry in some other way.

(JJMAJR) #24

The problem is that it kills many light health classes so quickly, it’s difficult to get any kind of damage through at that range, or even especially in close range.

And getting hit by even the M4A1 ONCE (in the face) makes this problem plague other Skyhammers, Redeye, and other classes with that much health.

And that much health loss is not going to be a good reason for Sawbonez/Phoenix/Sparks to use a healing ability on you. Aura is an exception because her health station is continuous healing to everyone in the team.

So, my point still stands.

(watsyurdeal) #25

[quote=“JJMAJR;199444”]The problem is that it kills many light health classes so quickly, it’s difficult to get any kind of damage through at that range, or even especially in close range.

And getting hit by even the M4A1 ONCE (in the face) makes this problem plague other Skyhammers, Redeye, and other classes with that much health.

And that much health loss is not going to be a good reason for Sawbonez/Phoenix/Sparks to use a healing ability on you. Aura is an exception because her health station is continuous healing to everyone in the team.

So, my point still stands.[/quote]

That’s just the trad off with light mercs, the only you’d fix that is everyone had the exact same health.

(Amerika) #26

[quote=“JJMAJR;199444”]The problem is that it kills many light health classes so quickly, it’s difficult to get any kind of damage through at that range, or even especially in close range.

And getting hit by even the M4A1 ONCE (in the face) makes this problem plague other Skyhammers, Redeye, and other classes with that much health.

And that much health loss is not going to be a good reason for Sawbonez/Phoenix/Sparks to use a healing ability on you. Aura is an exception because her health station is continuous healing to everyone in the team.

So, my point still stands.[/quote]

Your point doesn’t really stand because you can fire off a burst of M4 fire in the same amount of time and cause similar damage at nearly the same range.

The SMG’s are meant to be weaker than the assault rifles. That’s part of the balance of the system. The support classes get weaker weapons and they get compensated by abilities that are powerful and up often. Nader was given an SMG and not an AR due to her grenade launcher. Sparks was given a machine pistol due to her REVIVR.

In organized play you are going to be on the weaker end of the spectrum if you are trying to do a face off with any AR, burst or not, while using an SMG when at range. It’s kind of the point. In a straight up fight a Skyhammer with any weapon should beat a Sawbonez with any weapon at quite a few engagement ranges assuming equal skill. So I am not sure why you’re trying to compare SMG power to AR power as they aren’t intended to be equals.

(JJMAJR) #27

What about Kira with a Dreiss? In order to remain accurate you can’t just spam shots with the thing, you know. That weapon is worse than the Timik and M4 at dishing out enough damage to defend oneself, even though it’s so-so at dealing burst damage at a distance.

(Chilled Sanity) #28

If this goes like this, the only viable weapon is going to be a goddamn spork

(Dawnlazy) #29

Dreiss sucking is a different matter though, the weapon just needs a real revamp. If they really adamantly refuse to buff the firerate again they could at least make it a complete laser when hipfiring.

(hoyes) #30

I personally think the dreiss needs 30 damage, accompanied with a ROF nerf so it won’t be OP on spam fire. The ROF nerf would also help the gun as well, as the spread increase would be slower, and the overall experience with the gun won’t be affected as you shouldn’t be spamming the weapon anyway.

(doxjq) #31

I think the weapons are balanced fine as it is. My love/hate relationship with the M4 still stands. I don’t really enjoy using the full auto rifles any more but they do have their place in game and I do use them from time to time.

Admittedly I am a Stark main, but like Amerika I find the AR’s better for distracting snipers mainly just for the constant ROF. In all honesty the Hochfir is my favourite gun to distract a sniper with even. With the Stark or BR-16, you really have to hit that first shot and there is really no time to miss any shots between bursts because it gives the sniper far too much time to get an accurate shot off.

Tbh I have my good days and bad days with the Stark. The M4 and Timik I can almost always aim because it’s just easier to aim hitscan in my opinion. I can kill just as well with both at the same ranges, it’s all just a matter of finding my rhythm with each gun.

If I was going to change anything, the most I would do would maybe be to tighten up the starting spread on the M4 and Timik like they did with the Hochfir not long ago.

(Tanker_Ray) #32

Kinda agree, M4 is really comfy from long range but I still think that they should increase the effective range a bit to the same level as other assault rifles.[/quote]

Timik has 29m range but higher recoil.

M4 has 26m range but much stable recoil.

If M4 gets more range buff, then this would delete one of the reason why we use Timik.

@Amerika Uh, then I understood oppositely.

Well I wasn’t the one who was calling it sniper rifle level, so I won’t talk about this anymore.

and I never disagreed about burst rifle having long range. That’s very natural thing just like machine guns having larger mag and heavier weight than other guns.

hmm… about the M4. This is just what I feel about it, so just don’t take it seriously.

Of course it has one of the best spread and recoil when shooting far distances, but I just feel M4’s damage is too weak to shut down pro Vassilis.

May be it’s because of MO11’s Focus augment, but I tasted quite a lot of defeat(headshots) against them while I was shooting their head with M4.

Focus MOA is unbelievably stable.

Terminal’s Defender second level building level far is fine with M4,

but shooting way across the Bridge second phase’s Defender’s 2nd floor, Chapel 3rd phase Attacker, Underground’s 2nd phase when defending C4 from spawn wave, etc.

I feel M4’s dmg drop off is quite high because of 26m range, that I deal not so much damage to the enemies.

May be that’s why I’m Stark main like @Dox , eventhough you actually taught me to use S95 Stoker.

I needed something much harder hitting than M4, so I chose to use Stark which pulls out best dmg when shooting far.

@Dox I still don’t think they are balanced well.

Burst rifles having best range and dmg per shot is understandable to follow their weapon concepts, but let’s be honest, they are way too strong with decent spread and RoF STILL.

Besides the fact how Steyr AUG A1 looks awsome.

I still think their range should be kept, but not the damages.(-1 dmg for BR and Stark should work well.)

Female mercs and especially PHOENIX.

mercs with Max HP that can’t handle two times of bursts…(Under 110HP.) they are suffering so hard.

Burst rifle’s spread isn’t that unstable even after the nerfs, especially the BR.

Don’t even have to go that far, I have 4.1kills/min with Thunder’s MK.46, the merc that has no killing skills. (100% depending on own primary)

But I have 4.2kills/min with Stark, Fire Supports that actually have each other’s killing skills.(Not 100% only depending on bursts.)

Ususally merc that has killing skill doesn’t have that much high kills/min with their main weapons.

Though it includes Fire Support’s infinite self suppying skill, that is still quite insane, you know.

(Tanker_Ray) #33

@Jokder

I’m sorry but 30dmg is way too insane.

Not many people understands how strong this gun is, and this gun’s 27 dmg + 135 DPS with very stable spread after accumulated buff is crazy enough.

It is actually already able to spam-fire it. So don’t make it as Primary-Simeon .357.

I have 4.1 kills/min with this gun, which is same as my MK.46 so I don’t really think this gun needs a buff or total re-work like @Dawnrazor said.

Dreiss is just another gun that is over-shadowed by burst rifles with K-121.

Though they won’t rise high to sky like bursts did(Mainly because semi-auto single firing weapons are considered difficult to use), I am sure Dreiss will considered as really decent high-firepower gun someday, when people know how to use this gun.

(Amerika) #34

@THUNDA By your logic the MK46 needs a nerf.

Stark: 6.4 kills/minute - http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/1621680083547802713/75D79BDD6F22AC557D8639C0193CDE4D8EA9D454/

MK46: 6.7 kills/minute - http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/1621680083547802352/18D82DBD07E8CDB412B92AB8AF5C770C2862CA42/

And for fun here is the gun many people consider incredibly weak, the Blishlok: 6.2 kills/minute - http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/1621680083547801771/B78736E756AAF2E7E9CA065595852D4A27560EC7/ <----I guess we should nerf this too? It’s higher than my m4 stats.

My point with those images is that your personal stats and ability with a gun isn’t a good basis for an argument for buffs and nerfs.

Also, I keep explaining this, but the m4 has a shorter range because it’s extremely reliable when it comes to hitting a target consistently at all ranges even if it’s not hitting for max damage. And, btw, the stark/br aren’t hitting for max damage for the one or two bullets that hit at those ranges either yet you keep talking like they are. Please explain to me why you keep acting as if you not only hit all three bullets but as if they don’t also suffer severe damage dropoff? The Stark has a longer “range” but it’s effective range is shorter. Your chances of consistently hitting all of your bullets at the longest ranges goes down quite a bit, especially for targets moving left to right where you have to follow/lead a bit. These mechanics are why the Stark/BR have longer effective ranges than the M4. The Timik has a longer range because, at some point, it was buffed to try and make it an option over the M4 for players (which still hasn’t worked). The m4 has mostly stayed the same where almost every other gun has been buffed to try and match/better it.

(Tanker_Ray) #35

@Amerika

Um… please, I never said that way. Really, no offense here. Amerika.

I thought I explained the kills/min part by saying ‘it can be differ by mercs’.

For other example, Thunder who only depends on his primary most of the time will get higher kills/min, and Proxy of Fletcher who depends on killing skills, and decent secondaries will get well balanced kills/min for each other guns.

So it pretty much depends on what merc you use, and I was saying eventhough Fire Supports who are able to killing people WITH killing skills getting high kills/min with burst explains how burst rifles are good.

That’s all.

About landing shots =accuracy part, sonsidering one burst, yes you are right we can’t land all those shots, even miss all three of them.

But Stark and BR still has that pretty good RoF to cover that. 27/30 rounds aren’t that different from 35 rounds.

and besides the RoF you need when shooting exposed target, the SUDDEN amount of dmg is more important. You know higher dmg always bothers enemy’s own HP calculation(to decide when to evade, when to fight.), right?

At this part, bursts are the best.

Also about the range part, alll primary weapons have their min damage when it comes to max range, but that’s double the basic range.

I’m still not sure about primary weapon’s min damage(Shotguns = 1dmg, MPs = each one was revealed at 2016 Feb nerf.), but I’m guessing it’ll be half of base dmg.

(So M4 deals ABOUT 7dmg after 52m.)

SD never told us their min dmg, thus I don’t exactly know the raw number.

So if we are shooting someone 45meters away, M4 has severe damage drop off that starts from 26m~ 45, which is 19m drop,

but Stark or BR’s drop off starts from 29/30m ~ 35, which only experience 15/16m drop offs.

M4’s base dmg is only 14, but those two also starts with 17/18 dmg.

For single shots, Dreiss with 27dmg and 31m longest range will be the best, but burst rifles shoot bullets triple times per one click.

Of course all weapons in this game suffers with ranges, but it’s just burst rifles suffers the least. That’s all I wanted to talk about.

I know we need a stable recoil/spread for shooting far, but most vital part is base dmg and base range it has.

p.s. Nice kills/min. My MK.46 statistics were fxcked up since when he came out.

I have 36% Accuracy with Crotzni in my ex-acc, so I’m quite curious.

(Yes, I am doubting your skills a BIT.) But, have you… been shooting dummies(or walking noobs) instead of properly moving people?

Because my goodness, the accuracy. :open_mouth:

(Amerika) #36

I don’t agree with your merc/gun KPM assessment on why a gun should/should not be nerfed when using just your own personal stats. If the stats were a combination of everyone or at least the top 30% of the playerbase in regards to skill then the stats would be valuable in this type of discussion. But using your own, just like me posting my own, does not and should not influence the conversation at all. Because my KPM on my MK46 means that we should be looking into nerfing the MK46.

You keep talking about RoF as if the Stark/BR have a higher RoF than any other gun. They don’t. And by the 3rd burst (and i’m talking about the medium range game here), without ADS, you get horribly inaccurate and you have to switch to ADS (which I tend to do) or retreat and reset…or just spray and pray. Every situation is different. And even though my stats shouldn’t be used in a “nerf this nerf that” capacity they do show that I know just how accurate guns are because I am fairly accurate and can use all of them at a high level…so my opinion on the matter should hold a bit of weight.

The burst rifles don’t work like you keep repeating that they do. Your whole argument is based around how good they are at long ranges and fired repeatedly without having to put yourself into ADS. And you keep assuming that not only all bullets hit but all bullets hit the head. That is what is so annoying me about your argument and many others. I am fine with discussing the guns balance but do it in a non-hyperbolic way.

Yes, the guns are quite good due to the burst aspect of them. In a highly evasive game like DB hitting a player with a whole burst at close to max damage range will result in pretty good results against players who know how to play. Where if you used an M4 they might start hopping and you lose your TTK and you might not have the strongest tracking aim. So the bursts will always be better than the M4 or similar guns (mk46/k121) in those situations entirely due to DB’s movement system against really good players. The only way to even things up more would be to nerf the bursts into the ground or make them unreliable/uncontrollable which is what you’re advocating for. In which case we go back to using the m4 only and then suddenly your MK46 becomes a better choice for you personally (yes, I think you’re being a bit biased here…possibly unintentionally).

As far as my stats go, no, I haven’t been shooting dummies lol. You’ve seen my videos. I also shoot the EV, ammo/health stations etc. constantly which all count as a miss. However, to support my stats in DB, other games that have a stats system show me with similar stats. I’m currently ranked 30th in the world in overall accuracy in Overwatch ranked games and my battlelog stats from BF4 were very similar and my CS stats were also pretty up there for ranked games. So yes, I am shooting people that can move and also shoot back. And my m4 stats on my smurf are actually 43.5% accuracy. My m4 stats on my main account are lower due to me spending probably hours shooting at walls on live servers.

(Tanker_Ray) #37

@Amerika

Yeah It is true we shouldn’t use our own stats. I admit it.

But Sir Amerika, I never said it had ‘higher’ RoF than normal guns but pretty good, ENOUGH RoF.

Did I EVER wrote something that burst rifles are super accuracte that you don’t even have to ADS?? Or course not!

How could you understood this way?? I mean… I am so confused.

When did I ever said ‘not only all bullets will hit the head, but body’.

Gosh. I am not that stupid enough to argue this way.

Yes, the guns are quite good due to the burst aspect of them. In a highly evasive game like DB hitting a player with a whole burst at close to max damage range will result in pretty good results against players who know how to play. Where if you used an M4 they might start hopping and you lose your TTK and you might not have the strongest tracking aim. So the bursts will always be better than the M4 or similar guns (mk46/k121) in those situations entirely due to DB’s movement system against really good players. The only way to even things up more would be to nerf the bursts into the ground or make them unreliable/uncontrollable which is what you’re advocating for. In which case we go back to using the m4 only and then suddenly your MK46 becomes a better choice for you personally (yes, I think you’re being a bit biased here…possibly unintentionally).

About this part, then I won’t be saying Stark needs further spread nerfs like it had before at Feb.(Eventhough I still think Feb’s spread nerf was properly done, I was always on the burst delay expanding side actually. Just like those two were re-worked right after the CW.) But then, what do you think about BR, that only received Vertical recoil nerf?

p.s. Very nice accuracy. My highest was 40%, but no more than that. Do you have any know-hows for that? Not asking your physical things, but hardwares like monitor.(I already use Mumble.)

(Amerika) #38

@THUNDA

The BR and Stark feel very similar to me. They are slightly different but the way I fire them is virtually the same and I get pretty much the same results with both. So it’s odd when I see one person say how OP the Stark is right now but says the BR is fine then read another good player say how OP the BR is but then they say the Stark is fine.

Missing even a single bullet means you lose a ton of damage. And right now the odds of missing a bullet on a good player is pretty high in a lot of common situations due to the delay added, which has changed a few times now, in between shots. I’d wager if we ever get to see gun stats again the guns would be a lot closer in power than you’d think and the biggest difference between them would be player skill more than gun power. I’ve played a good amount recently and I’ve used the M4, k121, mk46, Granduer, Stark and BR and, right now, I feel all of them are nearly on the level. The k121 and GR are more random feeling with the Stark and BR feeling a lot more random/reliable than they have in the past. The m4 and mk46 feels like I never miss a bullet except when I doorway spam (which I do with those weapons but not the bursts).

As far as setup goes I don’t use a mumble crosshair. I use the game’s default cross. I know where the bullets come out on each gun and I just adapt (I would like the ADS on guns fixed). I’m not advocating that method but it works for me as I’m the type of person who doesn’t let the little things get in the way of what I want to do. I have an 144hz monitor and I keep my FPS locked at 144. I use a Logitech g900 mouse and I use it in wireless mode because it’s no different than wired and I don’t have to deal with the cord whipping around. It also has the best mouse sensor in gaming IMO. I had a Kone XTD Optical for most of DB though. However, it had some lift-off issues I didn’t like which is why I replaced it. Other than that I just make sure that I have enough room to move my mouse around. I bought a tenkeyless keyboard with Topre switches because I kept hitting my mouse on the side of my keyboard. So I no longer do that at least haha.