I would really like to see Bushwhacker’s SM82 and/or BL81 loadouts used a bit more rather than just C41 being used all the time. SM82 and BL81 both have the “Steady” augment which gives the turret 21% more health, which is useful but I don’t think it’s useful enough to make those loadouts able to contend with C41’s “Lock On” and KEK-10 combo.
I think “Steady” needs to be buffed to about 33% more health to the turret (from 21%) so that it can be a bit more noticeable in-game.
Really? But as soon as you start taking shots from the turret you can just make it to cover and start popping in and out while shooting while not letting the turret lock on to you - as long as you’re not going full Rambo and you play fairly cautiously its rare to see them as a serious threat. Plus if you have a good Nader/Fragger on your team they will always be rebounding their explosives into the turrets.
Really? But as soon as you start taking shots from the turret you can just make it to cover and start popping in and out while shooting while not letting the turret lock on to you - as long as you’re not going full Rambo and you play fairly cautiously its rare to see them as a serious threat. Plus if you have a good Nader/Fragger on your team they will always be rebounding their explosives into the turrets.[/quote]
Or Phantom who can cloak behind it and melee it xD
I’m not sure that giving an auto-aim, 100% accurate turret 160 HP is a good idea. Even more so since when one goes down you can immediately place another one if it’s off cooldown. Your not guaranteed that you have a Fragger or Nader on your team or that the enemy is going to let you take the time to pop in and out of cover to avoid most of it’s damage.
Bushwhacker is arguably the best engineer already.
Just like any other class there is basically only one weapon that is viable atm for each class which reduces the viability of most classes to 1 or 2 loadouts. Mostly one. Apart from Kira/Arty who have 0 ‘strong’ weapons. And Sparks but she has 3 incredibly strong perks so that is that.
[quote=“triteCherry;77469”]I’m not sure that giving an auto-aim, 100% accurate turret 160 HP is a good idea. Even more so since when one goes down you can immediately place another one if it’s off cooldown. Your not guaranteed that you have a Fragger or Nader on your team or that the enemy is going to let you take the time to pop in and out of cover to avoid most of it’s damage.
Bushwhacker is arguably the best engineer already.
[/quote]
Bear in mind that the only loadouts that would get better by buffing the Steady augment would be the SM82 and BL81 loadouts, and these loadouts are never used in comp because of how much better the C41 loadout is - it has a better primary, lots of ammo and Lock On, while the SM82 and BL81’s Steady does not make up for this loss of great primary weapon (and SM82 doesn’t have Lock On so that’s a massive drawback).
Yes, if these changes were made you might come up against a health-buffed and lock-on-buffed turret, but you know that to get those two benefits together the Bushwhacker has had to sacrifice his amazing KEK-10 for a fairly lackluster Blishlok. I don’t think it makes those loadouts OP in any way.
I believe you’re fixing the wrong problem there, the kek10 is simply stupid strong. Being atleast average, if not above average in every aspect. It has good dmg, high RoF, slightly higher magazine size, and even with the nerf, amazing accuracy. Think they need to figure out niche the kek10 is supposed to fill as a smg, like how the hotchfir is the bullet hose, low dmg but high RoF/Magazine size, blishlock is on the other end of the spectrum with high dmg, low RoF and higher recoil, smg-9 probably being the most balanced, crotzni is still quite strong at short to mid range, but what about the kek10? I just feels like it just does everything just as well, if not better than the other smgs.
If anything, it’s not the Steady augment that needs a buff, it’s the KEK-10 that needs a nerf. The turret is already and extremely powerful tool and really doesn’t need to be made even harder to deal with. A crossfire between Bushwhacker and his little monster is already strong enough.
But if you balance all the weapons to be the same, you’ll end up with less interesting loadouts - it’s much more interesting for the BL81 (if it’s augments were buffed) to be an option because you could sacrifice your KEK-10 for a Blishlok and in return get a much better turret.
If they instead balanced the guns to make the loadouts equal, we’d just end up with kits that are all the same.
I didnt say make them be the same, quite the opposite, the problem is the kek10 is just better than the other smgs in almost every aspect. Im suggesting giving it its own specific role with its share of upsides and downsides, instead of having it do everything well. Having the guns excel in different ways isnt going to make the loadouts the same, but having one gun be superior to the others will make everyone use the same loadout, which is the current situation.
Everything in the game should have distinguishable characteristics, having things that they do well and things they’re weak at. From the guns, characters(fragger’s lack of a notable weakness is main reason I feel he’ll be chosen over other assaults everytime), to even the set of augments loadouts have.
I mean, the deployables are a pretty big headache to take out especially they have like more health than half the mercs, let alone the perks. And also it’s pretty much an aimbot least to say when it locks on.
[quote=“aRagRappy;78683”]I didnt say make them be the same, quite the opposite, the problem is the kek10 is just better than the other smgs in almost every aspect. Im suggesting giving it its own specific role with its share of upsides and downsides, instead of having it do everything well. Having the guns excel in different ways isnt going to make the loadouts the same, but having one gun be superior to the others will make everyone use the same loadout, which is the current situation.
Everything in the game should have distinguishable characteristics, having things that they do well and things they’re weak at. From the guns, characters(fragger’s lack of a notable weakness is main reason I feel he’ll be chosen over other assaults everytime), to even the set of augments loadouts have.[/quote]
Okay, so what kinds of changes would you to buff to the Blishlok and what would you do to nerf the KEK-10 to make it less “OP”? Because if your answer is "buff the DPS of the Blishlok and nerf the DPS of the KEK-10, then gtfo - because that’s EXACTLY what I mean by making all guns exactly the same. Sure, the Blishlok would likely still have a slower firerate and would therefore be a little less consistent, but that doesn’t really make much of a difference.
And do you really want Aura’s to be able to use a gun that is as powerful as the guns available to the combat classes? One of the main reasons that Sawbonez is viable is because he is the only medic who has access to good SMGs (the Crotzini especially) - if you buff the Blishlok to the point where it is on par with the Crotzini, then why would anyone play Aura?
Similarly, Bushwhacker is viable because he is the only objective specialist who has access to the really good SMGs (the KEK-10 especially), but if we nerfed that KEK-10 we’d end up with Proxy and Bushwhacker having the same quality of guns and then Bushwhacker would become much less effective. Combine this with a buffed Blishlok, and you have Fletcher being able to out-gun Bushwhacker as well - which, again, is bad design since you can take cover from a Bushwhacker’s turret, but you can’t take cover from Fletcher’s bombs. If Fletcher’s Blishlok was buffed to the point of equalling Bush’s KEK then Bush would get mashed by Fletcher every time (plus Bushwhacker’s turrets are vulnerable to explosives).
The way that some guns are stronger than others is a GOOD thing - it keeps the balance between mercs and in some cases (which I wish there were more of) it keeps the balance between loadouts that are non-repetitive and interesting, rather than all loadouts basically being exactly the same in terms of augments and primary weapons. As I’ve said before, Bushwhacker can take the C41 loadout and take a KEK-10 with the Lock On augment, OR he can take a Blishlok and the Lock On augment AND the Steady augment (although Steady isn’t currently substantial enough in it’s health bonus to make this trade completely even - it still opens up an interesting dynamic between the loadouts).
Turrets only ever kill you if you get caught out in the open with no nearby cover - the only reasons you should die to a turret are A) the turret was placed in a hidden position that you didn’t expect or notice and you ran out into the open, got locked by the turret and couldn’t make it to safety before it killed you OR B) you’re an idiot and you decided NOT to take cover when it was available.
Once you have some cover, you can just pop out, pick away at the turret’s health, pop back in, rinse and repeat until it dies without taking ANY damage. It’s really not that hard.
Because of this, turrets are only really used in competitive games to pin down opponents in crossfires (where they can only take cover from one direction at a time), to delay an opponent as they have to sit back and pick away at the turret for several seconds before moving on, or to simply serve as a supportive role for its owner (because when you combine the turret’s fire with the KEK-10’s fire, THEN it creates a big disadvantage for the opponent in a 1v1.
If you’re dying to a turret on its own, you’re just not playing smart. Sorry.
Really? But as soon as you start taking shots from the turret you can just make it to cover and start popping in and out while shooting while not letting the turret lock on to you - as long as you’re not going full Rambo and you play fairly cautiously its rare to see them as a serious threat. Plus if you have a good Nader/Fragger on your team they will always be rebounding their explosives into the turrets.[/quote]
thats not so feasible to do when enemy players are also about. Turrets are extremely potent in providing additional crossfire firepower.
[quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
Okay, so what kinds of changes would you to buff to the Blishlok and what would you do to nerf the KEK-10 to make it less “OP”? Because if your answer is "buff the DPS of the Blishlok and nerf the DPS of the KEK-10, then gtfo - because that’s EXACTLY what I mean by making all guns exactly the same. Sure, the Blishlok would likely still have a slower firerate and would therefore be a little less consistent, but that doesn’t really make much of a difference.[/quote]
DPS is a pretty worthless stat in a fps, look no further than the BASRs to see pathetic DPS wreck everything. For the blishlock, reducing the recoil slightly to make its aim more consistant since its clearly the smg for long range. As for the kek 10, it becomes harder to differentiate the smgs since there’s 5 of them currently with the main roles of room clearing, hard hitting precision and balanced, remaining effective at all ranges but not excelling at any. Unless they give the kek 10 an extremely interesting role its just redundant.
[quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
And do you really want Aura’s to be able to use a gun that is as powerful as the guns available to the combat classes? One of the main reasons that Sawbonez is viable is because he is the only medic who has access to good SMGs (the Crotzini especially) - if you buff the Blishlok to the point where it is on par with the Crotzni, then why would anyone play Aura?[/quote]
you talk about about wanting variety but dont want any other medic but sawbonez to be viable in higher levels? Even if they buffed the blishlock nobody is going to use aura simply because of her minuscule hp pool and cumbersome and easily countered healing method compared to sawbonez, its not even an issue of guns between them. How would making the blishlock closer to the crotzni make people not play aura, do you even know what you’re saying? Aura doesnt have the crotnzi, she does has the blishlock. If anything it would encourage people to use her if she got better longer range options to her shotguns. Sawbonez is picked because of his higher hp and strong medpacks not because he has more smgs than the other 2 medics.
[quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
Similarly, Bushwhacker is viable because he is the only objective specialist who has access to the really good SMGs (the KEK-10 especially), but if we nerfed that KEK-10 we’d end up with Proxy and Bushwhacker having the same quality of guns and then Bushwhacker would become much less effective. Combine this with a buffed Blishlok, and you have Fletcher being able to out-gun Bushwhacker as well - which, again, is bad design since you can take cover from a Bushwhacker’s turret, but you can’t take cover from Fletcher’s bombs. If Fletcher’s Blishlok was buffed to the point of equalling Bush’s KEK then Bush would get mashed by Fletcher every time (plus Bushwhacker’s turrets are vulnerable to explosives).[/quote]
bushwacker is chosen over proxy, once again because of the hp difference, that and proxy mines arent that useful at higher levels. Its bad design to have a character picked all other options almost exclusively because they have a ridiculously strong gun rather than have the mercs chosen because of their abilities that make them unique.
[quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
The way that some guns are stronger than others is a GOOD thing - it keeps the balance between mercs and in some cases (which I wish there were more of) it keeps the balance between loadouts that are non-repetitive and interesting, rather than all loadouts basically being exactly the same in terms of augments and primary weapons. As I’ve said before, Bushwhacker can take the C41 loadout and take a KEK-10 with the Lock On augment, OR he can take a Blishlok and the Lock On augment AND the Steady augment (although Steady isn’t currently substantial enough in it’s health bonus to make this trade completely even - it still opens up an interesting dynamic between the loadouts). [/quote]
If you mean between weapon classes yes difference in effectiveness especially in different areas is good, but Im talking about weapons in the same class, the kek10 is simply superior to the other smgs overall, if not the vast majority of guns, with its above average damage, RoF, magazine size and accuracy. There’s plenty of ways to differentiate guns and loadouts sets by how guns handle and what situations they’re good at and bad at(ie close range/long range) and what situational advantages you get with a particular set of augments over another loadout. And your example of having 2 extremely similar loadouts creates the overall homogeneous feel of loadouts that you keep arguing against rather than giving significant choices and options.
[quote=“aRagRappy;79108”][quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
Okay, so what kinds of changes would you to buff to the Blishlok and what would you do to nerf the KEK-10 to make it less “OP”? Because if your answer is "buff the DPS of the Blishlok and nerf the DPS of the KEK-10, then gtfo - because that’s EXACTLY what I mean by making all guns exactly the same. Sure, the Blishlok would likely still have a slower firerate and would therefore be a little less consistent, but that doesn’t really make much of a difference.[/quote]
DPS is a pretty worthless stat in a fps, look no further than the BASRs to see pathetic DPS wreck everything. For the blishlock, reducing the recoil slightly to make its aim more consistant since its clearly the smg for long range. As for the kek 10, it becomes harder to differentiate the smgs since there’s 5 of them currently with the main roles of room clearing, hard hitting precision and balanced, remaining effective at all ranges but not excelling at any. Unless they give the kek 10 an extremely interesting role its just redundant.
[quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
And do you really want Aura’s to be able to use a gun that is as powerful as the guns available to the combat classes? One of the main reasons that Sawbonez is viable is because he is the only medic who has access to good SMGs (the Crotzini especially) - if you buff the Blishlok to the point where it is on par with the Crotzni, then why would anyone play Aura?[/quote]
you talk about about wanting variety but dont want any other medic but sawbonez to be viable in higher levels? Even if they buffed the blishlock nobody is going to use aura simply because of her minuscule hp pool and cumbersome and easily countered healing method compared to sawbonez, its not even an issue of guns between them. How would making the blishlock closer to the crotzni make people not play aura, do you even know what you’re saying? Aura doesnt have the crotnzi, she does has the blishlock. If anything it would encourage people to use her if she got better longer range options to her shotguns. Sawbonez is picked because of his higher hp and strong medpacks not because he has more smgs than the other 2 medics.
[quote=“ProfPlump;78703”]
Similarly, Bushwhacker is viable because he is the only objective specialist who has access to the really good SMGs (the KEK-10 especially), but if we nerfed that KEK-10 we’d end up with Proxy and Bushwhacker having the same quality of guns and then Bushwhacker would become much less effective. Combine this with a buffed Blishlok, and you have Fletcher being able to out-gun Bushwhacker as well - which, again, is bad design since you can take cover from a Bushwhacker’s turret, but you can’t take cover from Fletcher’s bombs. If Fletcher’s Blishlok was buffed to the point of equalling Bush’s KEK then Bush would get mashed by Fletcher every time (plus Bushwhacker’s turrets are vulnerable to explosives).[/quote]
bushwacker is chosen over proxy, once again because of the hp difference, that and proxy mines arent that useful at higher levels. Its bad design to have a character picked all other options almost exclusively because they have a ridiculously strong gun rather than have the mercs chosen because of their abilities that make them unique.
I feel like you don’t actually watch any of the Dirty Cups… Because:
And what are you talking about with “your example of having 2 extremely similar loadouts creates the overall homogeneous feel of loadouts that you keep arguing against rather than giving significant choices and options”? Those two loadouts (Bushwhacker’s C41 and BL8) are definitely NOT extremely similiar - they have very different primary weapons and one has a very useful and unique augment that the other doesn’t have (Steady).
When I was talking about my dislike of loadouts that are too similar, I meant loadouts like Fragger’s M62, M91 and M93 loadouts, which are almost EXACTLY the same - they all have the M4, Explodydendron and a magnum as secondary. The only difference is that M91 and M93 have a couple of useless augments (sneaky, springy, focus, chopper) while M62 has a couple of useful ones (unshakeable and cool - although even cool is fairly useless). This means that the loadouts are in no way unique - it’s just that one of them has Unshakeable, which doesn’t change the way that Fragger is played - it just gives a slight advantage in common situations. Other than that SLIGHT advantage, though, they’re basically the exact same loadout three times.
And Fragger isn’t the only one with near carbon-copies of loadouts - check out the lack of difference between Proxy’s R23 and R22 (where the only real difference is having Double Time vs Slasher), or Skyhammer’s M63 and M92 (where the only real difference is having Drilled vs Mechanic). They create no kind of interesting dynamic of trade-offs between the two - one is always better (unless they buff the Drilled augment) and this makes for the choice to be easy, and uninteresting, rather than choosing between Buswhacker’s C41 and BL81 which actually opens up an interesting dynamic of trade-offs between the two loadouts.
No, just no.
You cannot headshot the Turrent in order to bring it down faster. Not to mention that the turret usually has its engineer or someone else hanging in the vicinity. Hence the moment someone starts to ‘peek-a-boo shoot’ at the turrent, they set themselves up as an easy target. Just rest your cursor on the corner where the head comes out, and shoot some easy, steady, headshots.
Now, when facing a turret you could alternatively try to long jump ahead and try to quickly headshot whoever is camping in its vicinity. These locations are obvious with common knowledge. But the chances are that when you take down the engineer, the MG has already turned and is turning you into reddish swiss cheese.
Thus, I have resorted to rushing the turret spamming it with bullets before it gets the chance to shoot me down, and then turn around to drop some lucky headshots at the engineer or whoever else is in the vicinity. Most of the time, I die. But I also tend to bring down the turret and reveal our camping engineer to the team mate that followed me.
And that is just with one or two Bushwankers in the game. When half or more of the enemy team is playing Bushwankers, there are just too many turrets. Hence the opposing team is practically required to be filled with Naders, Fraggers or Fletchers just to clear a path. If they don’t, then pushing through becomes incredibly hard if not out right impossible.
So, as I said above. No, just no.
[quote=“Monty;79162”]No, just no.
You cannot headshot the Turrent in order to bring it down faster. Not to mention that the turret usually has its engineer or someone else hanging in the vicinity. Hence the moment someone starts to ‘peek-a-boo shoot’ at the turrent, they set themselves up as an easy target. Just rest your cursor on the corner where the head comes out, and shoot some easy, steady, headshots.
Now, when facing a turret you could alternatively try to long jump ahead and try to quickly headshot whoever is camping in its vicinity. These locations are obvious with common knowledge. But the chances are that when you take down the engineer, the MG has already turned and is turning you into reddish swiss cheese.
Thus, I have resorted to rushing the turret spamming it with bullets before it gets the chance to shoot me down, and then turn around to drop some lucky headshots at the engineer or whoever else is in the vicinity. Most of the time, I die. But I also tend to bring down the turret and reveal our camping engineer to the team mate that followed me.
And that is just with one or two Bushwankers in the game. When half or more of the enemy team is playing Bushwankers, there are just too many turrets. Hence the opposing team is practically required to be filled with Naders, Fraggers or Fletchers just to clear a path. If they don’t, then pushing through becomes incredibly hard if not out right impossible.
So, as I said above. No, just no.
[/quote]
Look, first of all if we’re talking about competitive communicative games, then turrets are piss easy to get rid of - you just need a Fragger, Nader, Fletcher or a Phantom and they can take it out no problem.
And also, this buff to the Steady perk only changes TWO of Bushwhacker’s loadouts, and NOT the one that is currently the best (which is C41 - KEK-10 and the Lock On augment combo). The only loadouts that would change are the two lackluster loadouts of SM82 (which is a SMG-9 + Steady) and the BL81 (which is a Blishlok + Steady + Lock On). Considering that EVERY good Bushwhacker player uses nothing but C41 as their loadout, it wouldn’t make competitive Bushwhacker more OP at all (unless this small buff to Steady coincided with a buff to the SMG-9 or the Blishlok).
Choosing one of those loadouts that have Steady drastically limits your combat abilities, due to you having to downgrade your primary weapon from the best SMG to either an average one (SMG-9) or the worst one (Blishlok).
And honestly I don’t even think the SM82 (SMG-9 + Steady) loadout would even come close to being better than C41, even with the buff to the Steady augment - the KEK-10 is just so much better and the Lock On augment in my opinion would still be better to have than a 33% health boost, let alone a 21% health boost. So it really wouldn’t make SM82 overpowered at all.
And BL82 (Blishlok + Steady + Lock On) would also still remain a fairly lackluster loadout - since it relies so much on that turret (whereas C41 has its strength mostly in its KEK-10 and less in the turret). That means that a lot of the power of your loadout is in an immobile, unintelligent deployable that can be EASILY destroyed at any time by a Fragger, Nader, Fletcher or Phantom (and even with other mercs it can still be vulnerable if you aren’t properly covering the turret with your SMG.
So remember, those two loadouts are the ONLY ones that would be effected by a buff to Steady, and NOT the most popular and (arguably) overpowered loadout that everyone uses exclusively.