Brink--coordinated flanking vs coordinated camping?

[INF3RN0]

One thing you have to realize about these forums is most of us here have probably been in competitive gaming before. The whole Quake/ET gaming community is above average so don’t take any of the comments offensive.

Or so much of them like to think so . Most of us are pretty average compared to people in more popular/competitive games; albeit ET has a fighting chance, while QW is like being pro at hello kitty online :stroggbanana:.

[PSG_Mud]

Or so much of them like to think so . Most of us are pretty average compared to people in more popular/competitive games; albeit ET has a fighting chance, while QW is like being pro at hello kitty online :stroggbanana:.

I didn’t mean just ETQW, quakers, eter’s

The avg CoD tard consists of cottage cheese for brains. So, I dunno man!

[INF3RN0]

Quake3/CS set the par pretty well, and ET at its strong point. I just always laugh when I see hardcore pubbers talking about their mad skills in QW (TAW tags delux). QW probably has one of the poorest gaming bases (Slowly withering away since day 1); play a pub today and I bet you will wonder if your on a bot server. COD probably has just as many skilled players as other games, but yes it is occupied by a majority of what you described :), and they are unfortunately also the bigger group in gaming :rolleyes:.

[Lequis]

[QUOTE=PSG_Mud;214420]

The avg CoD tard consists of cottage cheese for brains.[/QUOTE]

Hey, I take offense (not really). That wouldn’t be the case If 9M ppl didn’t play MW2. Srsly… almost everyone who owns a consul owns MW2, thus even people who do not own other multiplayer games, play MW2 online.

CoD4 had some of the best gamers in the last year before MW2 came out (because only hardcore fans still played). I had two profiles during my entire Xbox live career, the first had about 5 days, the second had about 8 days. My K/D was 1.2:1 despite the fact my younger brother played (about half as much as me), and I never used more than 1 frag as an explosive (never noob tube), my only perks were bandolier (more ammo), stopping power (a good perk, but everyone used it) and dead silence (which is a must when playing against good players, because they generally have turtle beaches). I never used LMGs, semi-automatic snipers, rarely used shotties (when they were usually UP (under-powered) mind you). I tried to limit my use of hated guns such as M4 and P90, and the only guns that I used that were cheap that I consistently used were the M16 and the MP5 (because if you used them right, they were the best).

The worst part was the fact that people used cheap sets (ie double noob tube, juggernaut (because statistically juggernaut is worse, except against M16 on occasion, because you can deny 1 kit kills), martydom, last stand and just sprayed in general with guns such as P90, M4, M21, and RPD). What made MW2 a horrible game is that despite the fact most people hated these weapons, they brought them back, took out favorite guns (M40 entirely and nerfed MP5 because maps became longer ranged) and added new cheap items such as thermal, heartbeat, OP shotguns (and secondaries in general (because it was more legit when you had to kill someone to get rid of your Deagle/USP/M9)).

There were Rules of Engagement in CoD 4, ie don’t use too many explosives, don’t spam. MW2 became one huge sausage-fest with camping and customizable killstreaks (which everyone optimizes), so teams don’t get UAV’s which help FAR more than getting a chopper gunner.

[signofzeta]

[quote=PSG_Mud;214420]I didn’t mean just ETQW, quakers, eter’s

The avg CoD tard consists of cottage cheese for brains. So, I dunno man![/quote]

Considering who IW listened to, and how the game came out as, I think that yes, you are right in that regard.

You can listen you your fans when you make a game, but listen to them too much, the only people who are buying your game are your diehard fans, and that is what Wolfenstein is trying to avoid, but to a huge failure. So, you do have to listen to your fans, but not too much.

But on the other end of the stick, an avg CoD tard may have a high paying job who plays CoD for its sheer mindlessness, and the no need to think, because that person used his brain hours ago before starting playing the game.

I mean, can you imagine coming home from work, beat, your brain is fried, and trying to play Quake Wars? You’d probably stop playing tactically, and more mindless fun.

[Apples]

[QUOTE=Lequis;214771]Hey, I take offense (not really). That wouldn’t be the case If 9M ppl didn’t play MW2. Srsly… almost everyone who owns a consul owns MW2, thus even people who do not own other multiplayer games, play MW2 online.

CoD4 had some of the best gamers in the last year before MW2 came out (because only hardcore fans still played). I had two profiles during my entire Xbox live career, the first had about 5 days, the second had about 8 days. My K/D was 1.2:1 despite the fact my younger brother played (about half as much as me), and I never used more than 1 frag as an explosive (never noob tube), my only perks were bandolier (more ammo), stopping power (a good perk, but everyone used it) and dead silence (which is a must when playing against good players, because they generally have turtle beaches). I never used LMGs, semi-automatic snipers, rarely used shotties (when they were usually UP (under-powered) mind you). I tried to limit my use of hated guns such as M4 and P90, and the only guns that I used that were cheap that I consistently used were the M16 and the MP5 (because if you used them right, they were the best).

The worst part was the fact that people used cheap sets (ie double noob tube, juggernaut (because statistically juggernaut is worse, except against M16 on occasion, because you can deny 1 kit kills), martydom, last stand and just sprayed in general with guns such as P90, M4, M21, and RPD). What made MW2 a horrible game is that despite the fact most people hated these weapons, they brought them back, took out favorite guns (M40 entirely and nerfed MP5 because maps became longer ranged) and added new cheap items such as thermal, heartbeat, OP shotguns (and secondaries in general (because it was more legit when you had to kill someone to get rid of your Deagle/USP/M9)).

There were Rules of Engagement in CoD 4, ie don’t use too many explosives, don’t spam. MW2 became one huge sausage-fest with camping and customizable killstreaks (which everyone optimizes), so teams don’t get UAV’s which help FAR more than getting a chopper gunner.[/QUOTE]

In ETQW I think that my kdr was down to 0.5 during the entire first month, THAT is what a call a learning curve! Now I can get a smurf and keep it 2.5/3 no problem, thats why mw2 is nubish, and I hope brink wont be that nubish!

Peace

[Lequis]

I’ve had a learning curve in a lot of games, but generally the ones with realistic health (MW2), slow movement (Halo) and serious movement delays (GoW). There definitely is a learning curve in most games, but skill usually only goes so far. Even the best players can only have a K/D so high. I love trick jumping, but I hate it when ppl glitch trickjump, ie get to a highground just to camp.

The reason so many people hate CoD is because you can camp in it (in fact it gives you a higher K/D). Imho, camping is basically the equivalent to no-lifing at WoW, because it is essentially the least fun you could have in a FPS (due to the staring at a blank screen part).

I hope this game forces players to be fast paced, because I refuse to stop running in any game, hence why I started this forum (coordinated flanking ftw). Games are supposed to be realllllly fast paced action, if you can’t handle that, get a slower game, don’t ruin it for everyone.

Personally I wish there were a game that incentivised movement/condemned camping, though that probably won’t happen for a while.

Major league gaming is mostly camping when it comes to CoD. Halo is all about aim. Gears is primarily rushing to the middle then camping (very similar to CoD, but you can be in plain sight of the enemy).

In general, next to no game does it right, but I like CoD because out of the games that have a lot of players, it has the fastest pace. Though I would love it if Brink made the fastest pace on a consul game yet.

[darthmob]

[QUOTE=Lequis;215170]Personally I wish there were a game that incentivised movement/condemned camping, though that probably won’t happen for a while.[/QUOTE]Both ET and ETQW rewarded movement over camping. The vehicles changed that a bit in ETQW but it was still true for combat on foot.

If you sit somewhere in the corner you’ll get 3 headshots and be dead before you realise what happened. Someone shoots you from behind? Turn around and you’ll still have a chance. Someone is waiting behind a corner? If you anticipate it you’ll have a fair chance of coming out victorious.

[tokamak]

Also, camping is not really effective in objective based games. Due to the fact that rooms/areas will be flooded with the enemy if they want to be there. You’re also hurting your team if you try to be a solo hero. In short, TF2 forces teamwork through classes, CoD has no teamwork, SD games requires teamwork.

Actually ‘camping’ chokepoints is a great tactic for defense and I really don’t see what’s wrong with that, anticipation is just as important as iniative.

[Lequis]

Actually ‘camping’ chokepoints is a great tactic for defense and I really don’t see what’s wrong with that, anticipation is just as important as iniative.

I agree with this. After all, landmines and turrets are both very powerful, and with heavy body type and more pips I think campers could win out if they balance the game wrong.

I prefer flanking over any other fighting style, because no matter what the players that can consistently shoot their enemies in the back should always–theoretically–win.

The point of any FPS should be outwitting your opponent, not simply being better in a head-to-head fight (although that usually helps).

In terms of Ender’s Game, down (or up I can’t really remember) is towards the enemy. All you have to do is find a way to get to their base (by exploiting every point of entry), pressuring them and causing them to lose all sense of orientation. Great military tactics beats out good players any day. That’s why I like CoD

[pxkcalb]

implications.

Didn’t think so!

[3Suns]

I just want to say that this is a fascinating topic. I want to just offer some wacky ideas that are almost certain to be met with outrage and a gnashing of keyboards.

First, in deathmatch/slayer gametypes, I think there is a fine line between map control (good) and camping (bad).

Second, none of the competitive videos I have seen for TF2 had anything even remotely resembling camping. With two soldier, two scouts, a demo and a medic, (6v6) playing objective game types, it is some of the most dynamic, highly skilled, thinking gaming you can find. I agree with Mud that camping becomes less effective and therefore less desirable in Objective games. I think we can be optimistic about Brink.

Major league gaming is mostly camping when it comes to CoD. Halo is all about aim. Gears is primarily rushing to the middle then camping (very similar to CoD, but you can be in plain sight of the enemy).

Insightful analysis, Lequis.

Several of my friends hated the “camping” in CoD4, so I suggested in an e-mail to IW’s Robert Bowling, that IW offer a toggle switch, “Collars” (a la Battle Royale). When the option is turned on, anyone who is not working on an objective, but is sitting in one place and is without significant movement for more than x number of seconds (also adjustable), their head suddenly just blows off . Suddenly, there is an explosion out in the middle of the field and Mr. Camper’s head is blown off all on its own!

Again, it would just be a option like turning friendly fire on or off. Obviously, IW never implemented it. lol

[PSG_Mud]

Actually ‘camping’ chokepoints is a great tactic for defense and I really don’t see what’s wrong with that, anticipation is just as important as iniative.

I think we have a misunderstanding what camping is. Camping is not defending a point. “The act of hiding or otherwise remaining in a hidden, obscured, or safe location in order to ambush an enemy or objective, or to avoid harm.” urban dictionary

Defending or holding a point is not always safe or hidden.

My point is, the enemy most likely knows that there is danger going in the direction of the objective. This nullifies the term camping because the ambush is not unexpected. Players will be scanning and clearing rooms anticipating a defense. Actual camping on the other hand has to take the person off guard. Like spawn camping, its unexpected and considered cheap like most cases of camping.

[QUOTE=3Suns;215338]
Again, it would just be a option like turning friendly fire on or off. Obviously, IW never implemented it. lol[/QUOTE]

Of course lol

[INF3RN0]

I don’t think that camping will be nearly as much of a problem in Brink, as there are no vehicles THANK YOU GOD (also no long-range snipers)! I think that we need to see a detailed outlay of the maps in order to assume how the defensive tactics might work. I am expecting that it might be either similar to a wolf/qw style or possibly a bit more confined with multiple routes to an objective.

[hellspawn7]

I don’t like to admit it but I suck at CoD not horribly but still you get the point one of the main reasons is I don’t stand still for too long at all I’m always caching bullets in the ass because everybody else is camping lol so I’m probably going to run a round like a mad man which is cool I can get use to the free running so I don’t have to use the S.M.A.R.T button and be even faster so I can get behind big boys like TF2.

[Lequis]

Yeah, I hate long range snipers, but it is an incredible feeling to be killed by snipers close range, you feel thoroughly owned (and when you do it you feel like your opponent should just stop trying). Personally I think that if snipers kill me close range, its a good kind of competition.

Personally if a sniper is on consul’s 10 sensitivity analog, idc if I am killed by any shot (it’s when they have 1 sensitivity that I’m worried).

Personally I wish games had a heart rate monitor based on a player’s level of movement. The heart rate could vary from 30 to 200 (or more (250?) with adrenaline(if such a thing was added to the game in syringe form)) with 70 at spawn. Campers that literally don’t move have a heartline of 30ish, minimal movement gives around 50. Constant running/firing your gun increases heart rate (because you can’t punish players for stopping to shoot). The lower your heart rate the more recoil to a gun, the longer the firing delay, the slower you move, etc.