Body Type Should NOT Be Linked To Speed & Health!?

(PixelTwitch) #1

So, let’s get a couple of things clear before I continue…
1, I understand that games are games and do not need to make sense.
2, I also understand the idea of simplified concepts to enable quick recognition.

Right…
In Dirty Bomb things like speed and health are based almost purely off the body type. This would normally make sense, if everyone was completely naked… However, with the current system we see stuff like this.

This woman…

and these women…
http://media.desura.com/cache/images/groups/1/6/5425/thumb_940x3000/53-H-600x399.jpg

Survive the same number of bullets to the chest, simply because… “Body type bro”

Now where this is especially evident in Dirty Bomb is when you look at stuff like Sawbones next to a Phantom and Thunder next to a Fragger. I feel the core concept of Body Type = HP & Speed is flawed when not taking into consideration their armour and weapons. Speed is no different, yet Thunder in this thick explosion resistant armour moves the same speed as Fragger and Small girl with big weapon and a supply station manages to run faster then athletic black guy Fletcher. Having these kind of things to tweak would also allow much more accurate balancing in the future.

None of this would be a problem however if it did not feel the weapons and abilities are being limited based on speed and health… All this is not to mention the movement system that I am hoping/assuming will be limited on HEAVIER mercs. When I say heavier I mean their overall weight taking weapons and armour into consideration. If we & Splash Damage can move past this concept it could really open up the potential for many new and exciting Merc concepts…

Without a doubt in my mind, I do believe the current system is antiquated in design and is a huge limiting factor in the overall experience. I see no reason why we cannot have a medium medic in light armour that runs the same speed as Proxy… Or why we cannot have a heavy armoured engineer with a decent weapon…

However these are just my thoughts… What do you think?

(Erkin31) #2

. All this is not to mention the movement system that I am hoping/assuming will be limited on HEAVIER mercs.

I hope not. I don’t like this kind of things in an arcade FPS (And this could limit the fun with playing an heavier mercs).
The speed and health should be based on the class and the gameplay balancing.

I prefer the system of ET/ETQW, where your speed is limited by the weapon in your hands. So a soldier can still run fast and do trickjumps with a gun/knife in its hands.

(Smooth) #3

The weapon held in-hand will be effecting player speed. Everyone knows you run faster with the knife, coming soon to an update near you!

We don’t want player skins to be something that impacts health since that limits how we can make our Mercs look and implies a deeper health & armour system when none exists. Shooting someone in bare flesh doesn’t deal more damage than shooting someone through what appears to be thick layers of armour, and we really don’t want it to since it would make the game very unpredictable and inconsistent.

The general silhouette is more important than the appearance of a Merc but even then there will be slight differences. I do feel however that general size is a very good indicator that most people will understand when it comes to health and speed.

PS. We won’t be limiting any Mercs ability to jump since it takes away a big part of gameplay from them. It also introduces issues with them being cut off from certain routes or getting stuck. It’d be another thing to design the maps around and right now we want to focus on getting them good and fun for everyone without throwing in more considerations.

Mercs already take their base movement speed into account when using jumps, with horizontal jump distances much shorter for slower characters, however the vertical height gained will be consistent across the Mercs.

(PixelTwitch) #4

[QUOTE=Erkin31;499932]I hope not. I don’t like this kind of things in an arcade FPS (And this will make heavier mercs more enjoyable to play).
The speed and health should be based on the class and the gameplay balancing.[/QUOTE]

Sorry but I have to say I disagree on a fundamental level…
There is no way that a Rhino should be able to do 5 wall jumps across from bridge to attacker spawn on WC.

Also watching Thunder and Fragger spamming shots down range while spamming jump and hitting the roof that is 20feet high not only looks stupid but also turns close range fights into a cluster ****. I think that point over everything else in the whole post is the one thing I feel strongest about.

(Erkin31) #5

The weapon held in-hand will be effecting player speed. Everyone know you run faster with the knife, coming soon to an update near you!

:eek: YEEAAAHH

There is no way that a Rhino should be able to do 5 wall jumps across from bridge to attacker spawn on WC.

But why ? It’s not ARMA.
If it’s good for the gameplay, and fun to play, this should be possible :slight_smile:
I don’t play to arcade FPS for this kind of limitation. This is why I don’t like games like BF where the gameplay is limited by realistics elements. I like fast FPS, I like realistics FPS (ARMA, RO, SWAT, Rainbow Six), but I don’t like the mixture.

(Smooth) #6

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;499935]Sorry but I have to say I disagree on a fundamental level…
There is no way that a Rhino should be able to do 5 wall jumps across from bridge to attacker spawn on WC.

Also watching Thunder and Fragger spamming shots down range while spamming jump and hitting the roof that is 20feet high not only looks stupid but also turns close range fights into a cluster ****. I think that point over everything else in the whole post is the one thing I feel strongest about.[/QUOTE]

Wall Jump in general needs fixing and there’s still some tasks outstanding to prevent this kind of spamming for all characters.

Even Proxy shouldn’t be able to do 5 wall-jumps flying across the map or hit a roof that’s 20 feet high :stuck_out_tongue:

(Seanza) #7

Oh. My. God.

<3

(PixelTwitch) #8

[QUOTE=Smooth;499934]Shooting someone in bare flesh doesn’t deal more damage than shooting someone through what appears to be thick layers of armour, and we really don’t want it to since it would make the game very unpredictable and inconsistent.

The general silhouette is more important than the appearance of character but even then there will be slight differences. I do feel however that general size is a very good indicator that most people will understand when it comes to health and speed.[/QUOTE]

If this was 5-10 years ago I would completely understand…
However that very same inconsistency you are talking about is already present in the game (Just using the Bushwacker and Phantom as an example). Although its not often done in an FPS in much detail, we are now living in a world where the vast majority of PC Gamers are already playing games like LoL and Dota… I feel these games have already shown that the connection between size and health has been severed.

You also point out the difference in older games like quake (http://idgames.clan.su/_ph/3/666762206.jpg) however at the same time (for the most part) you are already falling into the same pitfalls you say you want to avoid. All your light classes lack armor and your heavies are covered in it… I think its only really Thunder and Phantom that fall into the other camp of cosmetics over design. I mean, even the angular design of Phantom makes it look like his armour was designed to deflect bullets.This inconsistency alone is what has spouted my original post.

I am also not asking for flesh vs armor hit reg because that is very inconsistent.

Simply the general size being a good indicator over armour being a good indicator is something that had confused me for a good amount of time…
(only just realised today that all Mercs had the same HP as other Mercs with the same body type.)

I also just hate the fact that it feels we are going to have to live with the idea of small body means bad ability, low hp, fast and weak weapon… Medium body means medium hp, avarage speed, good ability and avarage weapon. Heavy body means high hp, slow speed, poor ability and powerful weapon. Just feels antiquated… Especially when you have so much more range to play with.

EDIT::
I was a little bit harsh on the “light body = weak weapon thing” so sorry about that.
I just realised that apart from Proxy and Aura none of the lights share the same weapons to compare with the other body types.

(PixelTwitch) #9

[QUOTE=Smooth;499938]Wall Jump in general needs fixing and there’s still some tasks outstanding to prevent this kind of spamming for all characters.

Even Proxy shouldn’t be able to do 5 wall-jumps flying across the map or hit a roof that’s 20 feet high :p[/QUOTE]

full re-write then >.< lol

PS. We won’t be limiting any Mercs ability to jump since it takes away a big part of gameplay from them. It also introduces issues with them being cut off from certain routes or getting stuck. It’d be another thing to design the maps around and right now we want to focus on getting them good and fun for everyone without throwing in more considerations.

Mercs already take their base movement speed into account when using jumps, with horizontal jump distances much shorter for slower characters, however the vertical height gained will be consistent across the Mercs.

This is one of the saddest things I have heard all year :frowning:

Seriously that could have been your one stand out feature that would have made both playing and watching the game much more dynamic. Giving lighter classes the ability to flank and take short cuts would have really been a stand out feature… I guess this because SD is scared beacuse of what happened to Brink (everyone using light classes)? This time you have many more toolds/features at your displosal to prevent that. Sure the maps would have to be “reworked” which the vast majority of people will say needs to be done anyway… but… but… :’(

At this point… I am seriously wondering why on earth you never stuck with a class based system… (apart from the fact people love to buy “Champions” lol)

(potty200) #10

If this happens, you’ll have what you had in competitive brink. Everyone running around as lighter characters because they are harder to hit but do not have a movement disadvantage. I think the balance in having lighter peeps with 75% health is a little low imo. 85% might be a bit better. As for heavy guys, maybe just a slight tweek to 120% as they are almost spot on.

Limiting teams to one heavy is a MUST in competition. They bring the pain and I feel one on each team is perfect for the gameplay with 5on5 right now! :slight_smile:

(PixelTwitch) #11

[QUOTE=potty200;499945]If this happens, you’ll have what you had in competitive brink. Everyone running around as lighter characters because they are harder to hit but do not have a movement disadvantage. I think the balance in having lighter peeps with 75% health is a little low imo. 85% might be a bit better. As for heavy guys, maybe just a slight tweek to 120% as they are almost spot on.

Limiting teams to one heavy is a MUST in competition. They bring the pain and I feel one on each team is perfect for the gameplay with 5on5 right now! :)[/QUOTE]

I really think limiting anything is a massive shame and a pure sign of a badly balanced game.
I have to say I also disagree that heavies are a problem… I feel its most certainly the medics that are the problem.

(Smooth) #12

We won’t be limiting anything and if players feel that competition needs to go that way then balance between mercs needs adjusting until all are equally valid options.

The end goal is to have EVERY SINGLE MERC an equally viable choice when it comes to winning the game, as well as a diverse selection being more effective than 5 of the same type.

PS. We can still adjust the maps to allow Proxy to make jumps that Rhino can’t (as well as simply making tough jumps easier) these are based on the horizontal distances though, vertical jump height remains the same.

(potty200) #13

[QUOTE=Smooth;499954]We won’t be limiting anything and if players feel that competition needs to go that way then balance between mercs needs adjusting until all are equally valid options.

The end goal is to have EVERY SINGLE MERC an equally viable choice when it comes to winning the game, as well as a diverse selection being more effective than 5 of the same type.

PS. We can still adjust the maps to allow Proxy to make jumps that Rhino can’t (as well as simply making tough jumps easier) these are based on the horizontal distances though, vertical jump height remains the same.[/QUOTE]

What about the spawn system? we need a drastic change to give the attackers a chance to get a few picks before making a push. It is just a nasty meat grind right now which requires no teamwork.

(PixelTwitch) #14

I have never had a problem with all Mercs being able to jump or the height in which they jump. I am talking purely about their ability to “wall jump” and even there I am not talking about taking it away…

Although we all know that the movement system will be changing (something I am very happy about) I just think that while all that is going on its the perfect time to throw my opinions out. My problem is with Rhino being able to chain 5 jumps like Proxy and other light classes… Even if you kept Proxy at 4/5 surely 1/2 wall jumps is MORE than enough for the heavy framed mercs?

Either way, I look forward to seeing what you do with the movement system and will hold judgement till I have tried it.

(Erkin31) #15

The main problem for me is to remove some gameplay elements for specific mercs. On Brink, if I only played the light characters, it’s not because they were more powerfull but because they were more fun. With heavies, you couldn’t profit of the parkour gameplay as the light characters.
In DB, I don’t want to avoid some mercs because their movements are limited/less fun.

Moreover, I think that the ability of use the map (special passages) should only be limited by the class choices. When I join a game, I will identify the lacks of my team from the classes selected by others players. It could be annoying to have to check the abilities of each mercs to know if my team need a specific character which can use specific ways.

(Glottis-3D) #16

Rhino is so funny, i like when he walljumps =)

(BrightIs) #17

[QUOTE=Erkin31;499978]The main problem for me is to remove some gameplay elements for specific mercs. On Brink, if I only played the light characters, it’s not because they were more powerfull but because they were more fun. With heavies, you couldn’t profit of the parkour gameplay as the light characters.
In DB, I don’t want to avoid some mercs because their movements are limited/less fun.

Moreover, I think that the ability of use the map (special passages) should only be limited by the class choices. When I join a game, I will identify the lacks of my team from the classes selected by others players. It could be annoying to have to check the abilities of each mercs to know if my team need a specific character which can use specific ways.[/QUOTE]

+1 agreed!

(Protekt1) #18

I think Smooth has the right perspective here. Consistent jump height is important just for the sake of normal traversal. How far each jump travels horizontal should be based on speed, that just makes sense. This allows them to make gaps that only the fastest characters can jump, which is what you are asking for in terms of some unique routes for light characters only.

edit:
I even agree with the speed being connected more to your weapon. This can allow them to make faster mercs without adjusting their hp down. There could be more things to trade off for extra speed other than hp.

(AssortedStuff) #19

As a side comment:

I always found this a bit bizarre. Your character is carrying all that gear which magically stops mattering the moment you hold the knife :slight_smile:

(spookify) #20

[quote=smooth;499934]the weapon held in-hand will be effecting player speed. Everyone knows you run faster with the knife, coming soon to an update near you!

[/quote]

yes!!!