Balancing Skill vs Power...


(stealth6) #41

When I played W:ET I was 100% against CS, but eventually I got bored of the dwindling community in W:ET and went in search of greener pastures. Tried many games, first other FPS games later pretty much every genre that was mildly successful. Atm CS:GO is pretty popular and the more I play it the more I want to play it. In the beginning my friends coaxed me into it, but now I find myself looking up gameplay videos & playing alone.

I’d say CS is arguably harder to master than W:ET. Recoil patterns, only 1 life per round and the bunnyhopping is a lot less forgiving if you make a mistake.

As for TA I don’t feel I can comment on that since I’ve only played it a handful of times and haven’t seen any high level matches.

Anyway I’m not arguing to make DB like CS, I wish they would follow their example though… old core gameplay with a new sleek look.


(tokamak) #42

The issue isn’t really the top-end of the skill curve. It’s the bottom end, the point of entry for new players.

Let’s contrast that with COD. COD has a really low bar. Meaning that although pro-players can stand out, the beginners won’t be slaughtered on their first try either. Anyone who’s ever tried a FPS can hop in and even get a couple of kills out. There’s lots of underlying mechanics (like rotating spawn locations) that ensure that even the biggest idiot sometimes finds an unaware target in his crosshairs.


(PixelTwitch) #43

Having to learn aspects is not the problem… Neither is getting stomped on your first go before you learn stuff…

The issue is when the “learning curve” is to highly dependent on skill rather then knowledge. By no means am I saying that skill should not be important! I am just pointing out that from the bottom end to mid level effectiveness should be more dictated by things you can learn.

While people in general do develop more skill over time, the skill growth can be very slow and in some cases capped. Also having no bottom end in a game forces players to commit more time and effort to playing. This is something that many people don’t want to have to do… Be it work, family or even social life. People should not be forced to commit in order to have fun with any game… Especially a free to play game where its been proven time and time again that lower skilled players who play for little time can often end up spending much more than their high skilled counterparts.


(prophett) #44

There is no argument, imo. I love the **** out of ET but CS is much harder to master.

I wish SD would stick closer to their roots (or at least make a choice). There has been some improvements but a lot of the core elements of successful previous titles are either not present in DB, or have been stripped to the point that they are barely recognizable. A game that enjoyed (competitive) success for about 10 years must have done something right.

I’d currently have much more fun playing an ET remake than I do playing DB, and I have moved on from ET since 07’/08’.

Right now DB has a major identity crisis, as many people have eluded to. Hopefully the game will fall to one side of the fence or the other, rather than sitting on it.


(tokamak) #45

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;505959]The issue is when the “learning curve” is to highly dependent on skill rather then knowledge. By no means am I saying that skill should not be important! I am just pointing out that from the bottom end to mid level effectiveness should be more dictated by things you can learn.
[/QUOTE]

The cerebral and the dexterous are two separate learning curves. Mobas are doing especially well because they have a very high cerebral skill ceiling (the huge amount of heroes create an infinite amount of possible interactions). CS:GO is mostly dexterous in that sense. Sure you must understand the maps and timings but that doesn’t come close to your ability to navigate, aim and fight.

For me personally, the cerebral is way more gratifying than the dexterous. Some people will read this as me being a noob that can’t shoot but I too have had my hay days in W:ET and ETQW when it came to that.

In ETQW the dexterous while the cerebral is the means. Your ability to navigate the maps greatly increased your capacity to pull of your plans.
CS:GO the cerebral was the means and the dexterous the end. The extend to which you understood the maps and timings greatly improved your chances in the firefights.

You’ll hook more newcomers with the cerebral than with the dexterous. People fell for W:ET because it was new and fresh. The first impressions weren’t understandable but they hinted at an enormous amount of depth and endless possibilities.

That right there is a hook that CS:GO being a rehash of an old series didn’t need. But that cerebral hook is definitely what DB won’t be able to survive without.


(Glottis-3D) #46

Performing easy side object, and surviving around them was a school for more and even more skill demanding mapparts - i.e. forward spawns, key routes and finaly primary objects.


(warbie) #47

I disagree completely. There are far more people playing CS and as such it’s more competitive, but the game itself - the actual mechanics - are much easier to master. And even then they’re random as hell. Watch any pro ‘how to control your spread’ vid on youtube - their bullets are still going all over the place. So many high level matches are decided by moments of random spread and who sees who first chance. I’m not trying to knock the skill involved by the way - these guys would likely hand me my ass in any fps :slight_smile: - but compared to ET, and even more so to RTCW, the twitch, tracking and movement skill isn’t there. I’d also argue the same about teamplay. In CS victory is often decided by a couple of key, split second moments. In RTCW there’s a constant toing and froing as attackers smash into choke points. Teams have to be far more consistent in their teamplay as games are more a battle of attrition.


(Erkin31) #48

This is a good point and this is relate to what I said about the big maps + multiple spawn + objectives of ET + other things like Mines/defuse-Command post-etc. With the small maps of DB and the classless system, there is a lack of depth on the tactical side.


(tokamak) #49

Exactly, it’s fun to be the team’s janitor. For a new guy it will make you feel like you’re contributing in a meaningful way by giving your team access to new routes and resources, and a more gleeful sense of fun by denying your opponent those.

And note that ‘janitor’ does not mean ‘buff caddy’. That was basically Brink’s shortcut to get support roles like in W:ET. There’s more to it than that.


(spookify) #50

Here’s a question:

Does this game have to high of a learning curve right now? Is the skill ceiling actually too high?

Im old and dont have the patience’s or reflects I used to have and right now that is hurting me in this game. Mostly the patience’s part. I can track fairly well but have muscle memory for many games and instantly want to rlrlr because the crouch or standing still reward just doesnt seem to be there for me.

Can the best players learn these guns and have the patience’s to not move so the gun behaves correctly?

On the other side I say F#$K NO!! HAHA… I can be spot on with a gun like phoenix and then all of a sudden I lose it and I cant hit crap! This could be because the server fills up and I loss FPS or because a few euro players come on the server and magically teleport around a corner and shot me behind a box… The AR’s and even OP arty can be spot on and then magically start miss everything!

Gun consistency and game smoothness still need a lot of work.


(PixelTwitch) #51

[QUOTE=spookify;505969]
On the other side I say F#$K NO!! HAHA… I can be spot on with a gun like phoenix and then all of a sudden I lose it and I cant hit crap! This could be because the server fills up and I loss FPS or because a few euro players come on the server and magically teleport around a corner and shot me behind a box… The AR’s and even OP arty can be spot on and then magically again miss everything!

Gun consistency and game smoothness still need a lot of work.[/QUOTE]

This is why I am not playing any more…
The games performance compared to its visuals and gameplay style/expectations do no line up…
4 people in a server? DOMINATION!
full server? can’t hit anything.
Sure I am not going to deny that its likely my own problem due to not being able to adapt to certain situations because other people seem to be having no problem at all…

Just feels inconsistent and bad… Building a game based on tracking and ms reactions should…
A, not be on the unreal engine where reactions are delayed due to the way frames are rendered.
B, not try and produce a visually taxing game.

My honest feelings from this stand point are that this game will be amazing in 5 years when we all have 350fps constant and lower latency on all our devices. lol


(Glottis-3D) #52

<33333 350fps


(Rokkamaisteri) #53

[QUOTE=spookify;505969]Here’s a question:

Does this game have to high of a learning curve right now? Is the skill ceiling actually too high?

[/QUOTE]

I think DB does have high learning curve, major issue I feel being there’s given little information what would indicate why did I die. Having elements that could describe this more accurately the result of firefight (All taken hits from short while before death, where hits were taken and people who were involved in firefight, plus more time to explore the positions where hits were fired and taken) would give something to grab on and improve.
There’s lot of ways how people learn, and I usually learn the most when my own failures can broken down and explained accurately rather than tell “I lost”.


(onYn) #54

So you guys are talking for 3 pages in a thread on a topic that is mostly focused on proper balance and performance optimization, in a game that is in a beta and (like we all hope) still developing and not that close to a release? Even the fact that all the maps we are playing on right now, seem to get major updates in the future should be enough for that matter.

That´s at least the case for merc specific/performance balance. And even after the potentially “ideal” balance updates - you will see mercs that will be useless on people who are new to the game, but very strong on people who know how to use them - and for me that´s how it´s supposed to be.

If some people like to see less power for aiming and tracking skills, I got to say that it´s an FPS after all. At least if I haven´t missed any important dev updates. But since I think that this topic is mostly depending on personal flavor I guess there is no right or wrong. I like to compare it with cooking. Sometimes you need all possible ingredients to make something taste well while you can make something delicious with only 3 ingredients as well and there will be people who like one of it, or maybe even both. But saying what´s better is and will always stay a matter of personal taste.

I wonder how the CC guys did when they tested the servers, but I am sure that SD has the data from this games, and will be able to tell and judge properly, if n00bs actually can kill n00bs. I am a fan of assumptions, and would support that case more (since I obviously want this game to become successful as well :))when there would be some logic behind it - but there actually isn´t. For me it´s obvious that 2 new players who try to kill each others, not only will struggle to aim, but also to move, what will cause them to almost not move at all (also because of them being confused etc.), making it so much easier to hit them… At least that´s my, some of my friends personal experience, and what some of those CC guys told me back then (they also said that they feel like they are improving etc.).

A very interesting point, that actually makes all this talk about this game being too hard look so much more laughable (sorry I can´t get a better word out of my mind) is a friend of mine who I once introduced into ET:QW. The guns and the aim/tracking skills were not only very similar to what you see in DB, but the movement also offered more possibilities also during the fight (=it was hardewr), the game itself had major performance issues, and even much bigger latency issues. Under those circumstances it should be impossible for him to kill anything - since he only played with me and some friends I knew back then, who actually were very good… much better then myself and I spend 2000 hours in that game. But that simply wasn´t the case. He had some trouble the first 2 or maybe 3 days, but after some hours he figured it out, and was able to keep up with all the other, way more experienced players (who actually knew how to move while shooting etc.). And no he didn´t play ET or something similar before. And also no, he is not an exception (even tho he really learned extraordinary fast), I have some other close RL and also online friends who experienced the same, as well as I did myself. Since DB doesn’t suffer from those insane performance and latency issues (even tho it´s obviously bad as well, but not even close as bad), even the best possible movement in DB doesn´t make it as hard as it was in ET:QW to track someone AND you expect equally experienced and skilled people to play against each other there is literally no way the concern about n00bs not being able to kill each other has any single valid point to it.