Balance Issues And How To Fix Them - Spreadsheet

(Gruntel) #1

Hello!

My name is Grenthell and I’ve been playing video games competitively for the past 3-4 years. I’ve played competitive CS:GO and SF2. The aim of this spreadsheet is to present most of the current balance problems and their respective solutions. Weapon balance will NOT be discussed here as it needs a separate spreadsheet (my fellow friend Roger promised to take care of this). The information presented was discussed with friends and members of EvacZone. Any suggestions and corrections are welcome.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vRgKkoPGj9tvAv8-5UZ_6fWwf1j79sM8pB8LbI2iihI/edit#gid=0

Thank you!

P.S. Yes, I read the new patch notes and I’m not impressed.

(srswizard) #2

I really like nearly all of the suggestions in the spreadsheet.
I don’t want to see the airstrike cooldown reduced, though, and I believe that the most OP thing about airstrikes, is the fact that sometimes the airstrike markers don’t appear at all.

(Gruntel) #3

Hey! Thank you!
We couldn’t really think of anything specific that could improve the airstrike, simply because there are so many “variables” - airstrikes don’t happen instantly, sometimes they kill people inside buildings or far away from the area of effect, there are no markers, etc.

They are actually going to reduce Arty’s airstrike CD from 25 sec to 20 sec according to the new patch notes. I don’t think that those 5 seconds are going to make a huge difference, simply because the problem was and still is not that you don’t have an airstrike when you need it, but that the airstrike itself is pretty weak.

(dignifiedIncrease) #4

I agree with everything said although maybe they could just do the revive system like in enemy territory like others have said. That and i think arty should be given the ET style arty. Maybe not as strong but it should last longer than it does atm.

(B_Montiel) #5

I like the “gunfights above the rest” spirit there is in your ideas. Sadly, for most of the tweaks you’re mentioning on explosive abilities, I feel they are like radical gameplay changes which devs won’t do anymore…

About revives, the debate train is rolling for quite some time now, but, the same, they’ve added it a long long time ago for some reasons for which I pretty agree with. Some changes should be made though. Make it visible or the same way as ET did it.

About aimpunch, it’s fairly low on gunfights, I never felt it changed the gunfight endings.
Removing it from snipers, well, it won’t allow anyone to counter snipers from afar. An nice aiming skyhammer/arty should be able to deal some good damage if the sniper got spotted.
Keep aimpunch on people who are sighting ?

(Gruntel) #6

Yup, but the truth is that radical changes are what we need, because game is far from competitive at this point. Guns should kill people, not explosives. They can help you, but at the end of the day it’s a First Person SHOOTER.

You’re the second person talking about revives in ET. Haven’t played Wolf multiplayer, could you explain how it worked?

I can deal with aimpunch most of the time (unless I am being shot at by a Blishlok or the K-121), but me being able to deal with it doesn’t mean that it’s a positive thing. Quite the opposite infact.
Counter-sniping shouldn’t happen from afar. Sniper is good at long range only. Doesn’t mean they can’t kill people mid-range and CQC, but they simply aren’t good at it. They have less HP and an unforgiving weapon.
Mercs move pretty quickly in this game so getting headshots consistently is pretty hard. That said, a sniper may have to peek Skyhammer / Arty twice, giving them a fair chance of fighting back - landing a couple of headshots on a squishy sniper shouldn’t be that hard. After all the “assault class” (currently represented by Skyhammer and Arty) should be the jack of all trades, good at everything, excels at nothing, so comparing them to a sniper at a distance, they should be at a disadvantage. Again, this is all only in theory. We need to see how it works in-game, without the aim-punch. I may be wrong.

(Gruntel) #7

“I feel they are like radical gameplay changes which devs won’t do anymore…”

It is ENTIRELY up to them to make this game good. I like the game and I’d love to help, just like everyone else on this forum, but at the end of the day, if they don’t listen to the community and the competitive players, we can only do so much. I come from a game that died because of this.

(god1) #8

Good stuff. I had the same exact thing in mind for Aura’s tankstations but maybe 4-5 seconds of delay is too much, 1-2 would be better in my opinion because the game is that fast after all and you have to keep in mind the timer would reset with every stray bullet you get hit by.

(B_Montiel) #9

@Gruntel : I totally agree with your statement. I feel like explosives are punching game sequences a bit too hard (mainly, proxy’s mines which I personally abuse of and fragger’s grenade). I’d be glad if they reduce those quite strongly. Remain Nader that will come pretty soon I guess. Maybe put her nades around 50hp would sound right following your ideas. Keep hoping now… :slight_smile:

About the revive invincibility in ET : the revived player was in a clear obvious position, unable to do anything until the invincibility went off. He was even unable to look around. But that’s probably a bit too restrictive. My call here is too put the revived players into a distinctive kneeling position. Of course, revive invincibility goes off at the first input (which already is). I’m probably too demanding, but I also mentioned in an older thread that under revive state players should let bullet go through. Medics can use them as a bullet eater shield in tight alleys right now.

(smartIsland) #10

Gameplay IS all about guns, the only reliable way to get the ttk nearest to 1 is with headshots, which adds a ton of aiming, dodging and positioning / combined fire / overlapping fields of fire.

I think the explosives do detract somewhat from this as you said but not immensely. I just don’t think you will reliably be able to complete objectives with a team full of just fraggers and proxys. When 5 man teams field a sniper for headshot revive denial and wallhacks and at least 1 med you are already leaving “grenade spam” territory.

(smartIsland) #11

Also I really feel Arty would be played a lot more if his targeting were faster to lock and able to aim on the EV and better at targeting vertical structures. I never had close to this much trouble with the targeting in quake wars

(B_Montiel) #12

3 fraggers = 6 grenades. More than enough to sweep an entire 5 players enemy team. If it’s not already happening in ranked games due to the lack of class restrictions, I’d bet it will sooner or later.

(Humbug) #13

[quote=“B. Montiel;12557”]
About the revive invincibility in ET : the revived player was in a clear obvious position, unable to do anything until the invincibility went off. He was even unable to look around. But that’s probably a bit too restrictive. My call here is too put the revived players into a distinctive kneeling position. Of course, revive invincibility goes off at the first input (which already is). I’m probably too demanding, but I also mentioned in an older thread that under revive state players should let bullet go through. Medics can use them as a bullet eater shield in tight alleys right now.[/quote]

you were able to shoot though, thats why you couldn’t look around.
Without the “meatshield” reviving in fight won’t happen anymore. I don’t think that would be good/better.

(B_Montiel) #14

[quote=“Humbug;12566”]
Without the “meatshield” reviving in fight won’t happen anymore. I don’t think that would be good/better.[/quote]

That’s why I mentioned I was “too demanding”. In my opinion, brain should work every time in this game, including when players are wearing paddles and running to their downed teammates. People should already think about an escape plan or a cover even before going for a revive. Asides, this issue should probably be fixed by the kneeling position either way.

(Zenity) #15

Everything requires game sense, skill, and experience to be used at optimum efficiency. Explosives absolutely can have a place in a competitive shooter, Wolf/ET being one of those games which proved this.

There can be advantages to leaving elements like that in the game, not just because many people enjoy them, but also because it creates more variety and interest for spectators. When creating a top competitive game, designing for spectators is almost as important as designing for players, so this can’t be ignored.

Obvious issues of optimal strategies which are too easy to deploy should be fixed of course. I am just saying that explosives in general, or the fact that they are effective, don’t necessarily indicate a problem.

I can only judge by the matches I have watched so far, and to me they actually looked really good, with no dramatic issues from what I can tell. If players feel differently about this, then sure it would be good to hear about that.

Speaking as a game developer, I find that players neutrally describing how they feel about something is infinitely more useful than players describing what they think should be changed. For everything else there is actual data / experience, and of course the game designers which are paid to do the job. :slight_smile:

(chickenNwaffles) #16

Someone on these forums that also thinks aimpunch is bad? Why, I never.

These changes are perfect.

(Gruntel) #17

@Zenity : Yes, everything requires game sense, skill and experience, but tracking targets, going for headshots and controling recoil (especially for newer players) is a lot harder than cooking a nade that vaporizes everything or looking at the spawn timer to see when to throw it at the enemy spawn (Yes, it does happen both in pubs and competitive.)

I never said that there should be no explosives. What I am saying is that engagements should be based mostly on gunplay. Nades and mines can and should help you, but they shouldn’t do all the work. Look at CS for example. Great competitive game. Frags deal very little damage, but if you coordinate it with a teammate or throw it at a fleeing enemy out of sight they can still kill. I know that Dirty Bomb is an entirely different game, but there are some things that apply to all competitive games - gunplay über alles.

All of these suggestions are because of how we feel. You want me to tell you how I feel? Game is fun for a while, playing pubs, but then you start losing gunfights (or nade fights) you should never lose with over 10 000 hours behind you. When you can’t do anything against a player with a only a fraction of that playtime you really start questioning your skill. I just exit the game and move on to something like CS where I can be good again.

“For everything else there is actual data / experience, and of course the game designers which are paid to do the job.”

Game designers have done a wonderful job at designing the game. It’s just awesome. But when it comes to balance changes for competitive play, well in all honesty this is competitive player’s job. I don’t see why they can’t help eachother. :slight_smile:
This is another reason why CS has come this far, because they listen to the competitive community.

(Glot) #18

speaking about Proxy and her mines:
they should kill people. thats her ability, that makes her a strong merc.
in order for her to not be OP merc we just need to increase the cooldown. so that she cannot spam mines, like she does now. every mine should be in essential places.
at the moment it is like playing chess. just move them from point A to point B.

so i agree on Proxy mines problem, but disagree on solution.

the more i play the more i think that all spam-ish abilities should go closer to Skyhammer’s timings. like ~1 minutes in cooldown. so that you actually treasure them. and think twice before you use them.

(Szakalot) #19

fact check: shooting / using abilities removes zombie-time after revives.

(Szakalot) #20

[quote=“Glottis-3D;12638”]

the more i play the more i think that all spam-ish abilities should go closer to Skyhammer’s timings. like ~1 minutes in cooldown. so that you actually treasure them. and think twice before you use them.[/quote]

This. Proxy mines aren’t an issue because of how much damage they do, or even the self-arming as much as that they can be thrown over and over again. Same with HP station: Aura without the station is a laugh.

I think it would also add to the MOBA feel of the abilities being really special.