Aura vs Sawbonez - Balancing Suggestion

(R5on11c) #21

[quote=“sunsetRivet;14120”]
Maybe simply give it a max amount of revives w/o CD (like 8) could work out as well.
This change of the revive should just prevent that two medics keep throwing their zombies (as you called them) at eachother. I don’t want to play “Necromancer SIM”.[/quote]

Exactly this idea makes me cringe HARD. The medic is supposed to be a reliable reviver in combat. It might sound a bit futile to some but in competitive (and that’s what the game is aiming for) gameplay you have to make sure that your enemy is DEAD, not incap but DEAD. Considering this AND the fact that a medic in the open is an easy target and the amount of skill / prediction / battlesense you need to actually pull of the “necromancer” i can safely say that this mechanic is definitly balanced.

If we should’ve learned anything from class based FPS (or even MMORPGs) is that you need to take the medic down first. Just because you might not like the idea that the medic is making your attempts to kill the enemy completly futile doesn’t mean it’s the mechanics fault. Once you have taken the medic down the rest is simple damageoutput.

Classes suitable for taking down medics are : Vassili (range+pecision+nonrevivability), Proxy / Aura (speed+burstdamage) , skyhammer (airstrike) , fragger (grenades… it’s not hard)

There is virtually NO reason whatsoever to nerf the Defib as:

  1. You both have the Defib, come on
  2. It IS balanced, you can take them out if you do it with a little coordination
  3. This isn’t anything new, take the medic down first. It’s been in every class based FPS

Edit: The only thing i might be okay with being nerfed is the amount of health that is needed to take somone out completly. Make it half, i don’t care but the Defib itself doesn’t need to be nerfed.

(CPTpurrfect) #22

First: This game may aim at some point at competetive play, but it is a free2play - or at least will be a F2P at some point. Means most of it’s funding won’t come from professionals, but from casual players.

Second: The Revive is NOT balanced since it exposes the reviving medic only a minimal period of time and since sniper rifles still don’t punch through walls (which they should up to a degree, but that is another issue and not to discuss here).

So far my ideas to balance out the revive are:

  • Make it single charge with short CD between the revives.
  • Give it a high number of charges but either high CD or no regeneration of charges at all
  • Force the Medic not just to run - zap - run to revive his allies, but let it take a moment (1,65 seconds I’d say) - this is atm my favourite approach. It would also make Sawbonez stronger vs Aura (due him having more health and therefor a better chance to survive) which is one of the things this thread was originally about

I may add: The original idea here was to find a way to force Aura to act more behind the lines while Sawz gets more the “combat” medic idea. I just want you to remember that.

(Nasstyy) #23

[quote=“sunsetRivet;2214”]As many other players already said, Aura is currently not A but THE problem in this games balance and I agree on this.
But how to balance her?

Here is my approach:

Aura:
Health: Increase it to 105
Movementspeed: Reduce it by 10 - 15%

Healing Station:
AOE: Increase by 5 - 10%
NEW! Delay: Players are only eligable to healing if they haven’t received damage in the past 1,5 seconds

Defibrillator:
Cooldown: 3 secs

On the other hand we have Sawbonez who is currently just FUBAR if you compare him to the stronger Aura.
Here is my idea how to make him “work”.

Sawbonez:
Movement Speed: Increase by 5%

Large Medikit:
NEW! Instantheal: The Medikit instantly heals 20 health. (heals himself only by 12)
HoT (heal over time): The Medikit now heals another 30 health over the course of 6 seconds. If you are damaged the HoT is cancelled. THE HOT DOES NOT STACK!! (heals himself by 23)
Maximum Number: The maximum number you can carry is reduced to 2 (you can place up to 5)
Cooldown: CD is set to 13 secs

Defibrillator:
Cooldown: 3 secs [/quote]

Agree to everything you said about Aura other then the defibrillator cool down.
The aura heal should be made a HOT like Sawbonez has… and make it faster since its positioned in 1 place but make sure it heals slower then itdoes now, (kill the instant max heals)…

Sawbonez does not need to be changed… hes in a very good place.
i feel hes one of the most balanced mercs in the game.
(Yes to the 5% speed increase, medics should be faster)

(R5on11c) #24

[quote=“sunsetRivet;14195”]First: This game may aim at some point at competetive play, but it is a free2play - or at least will be a F2P at some point. Means most of it’s funding won’t come from professionals, but from casual players.

Second: The Revive is NOT balanced since it exposes the reviving medic only a minimal period of time and since sniper rifles still don’t punch through walls (which they should up to a degree, but that is another issue and not to discuss here).

So far my ideas to balance out the revive are:

  • Make it single charge with short CD between the revives.
  • Give it a high number of charges but either high CD or no regeneration of charges at all
  • Force the Medic not just to run - zap - run to revive his allies, but let it take a moment (1,65 seconds I’d say) - this is atm my favourite approach. It would also make Sawbonez stronger vs Aura (due him having more health and therefor a better chance to survive) which is one of the things this thread was originally about

I may add: The original idea here was to find a way to force Aura to act more behind the lines while Sawz gets more the “combat” medic idea. I just want you to remember that.[/quote]

First point is invalid, even the devs say that this game is not suited for casuals. Also does a competitive title always work for casuals , not vice versa, keep that in mind.

Second: You play Call of Duty don’t you…

Your balance “ideas”:

  • Why the CD, it doesn’t make sense
  • I’m getting the feeling you just want to see the defib weaker
  • Okay, i get it… what the fuck? 1,65 seconds? Did a concrete block meet your neo-cortex lately? No matter how bad or casual your enemy is, there is no way a 1,65 sec revive is ANYwhere viable, then i could just go fragger, tank the dmg away and just use the “Help up” function.

I remember what this thread is about very well, and you’re not making those to more balanced in comparison, you’re suggesting to make them outright useless.
There is no way i can support your ideas because it would throw the basic use of a medic out of the window, ungrateful / unrewarding to play and in fact imblanced.

(Solid Stache ~NaC) #25

This exactly. It’s super inconsistent with all of the medics. Each one has a reduced self heal while she doesn’t. I would be fine with other healing stations healing normally, but it’s pretty stupid that she can just selfishly heal herself with no repercussions.

Phoenix is more of the combat medic who has a heal that has no animation or switching to, allowing him to heal while firing.

(CPTpurrfect) #26

Sooo… new idea about the heal station:

  • Aura does benefit only for 33% of the regeneration of her station
  • instead of having instantly the full benefit the heal is “ramping” up (like a gatling gun winds up) so that you gain faster health the longer you are inside the area
  • if you are damaged while you are in the heal area the ramping resets (nothing more. you will instantly begin regenerating after you were damaged. just for less - I think this is actually better than say “damaged guys are uneligible for heal for 1-2 secs”)
(Szakalot) #27

33% is way too low, thats sawbonez levels of regen and would make Aura unviable.

I like the idea of ramping up. So the longer you don’t get hit, the faster you regenerate.

(Terr) #28

I think a good “first pass and see what happens” would be:

  • Heal rates are penalized based on how recently the person took damage
  • Aura health-station should be weaker to direct (bullet, knife) attacks.

Depends what you mean by “casuals”. If you mean people who haven’t unlocked the specific magical counter-characters, then we’re all screwed, since the F2P/Freemium business model relies on some basic level of casual involvement.

(R5on11c) #29

With casuals i mean people who just fuck around in the game and don’t play the objective. Typically the guys who pull the conclusion that their death means that the cause has to be overpowered. Basing balance around the capabilties of a casual player is the most dumb thing to do since you give out advantages that to compensate for the lack of skill which can be abused by actually good players , you feel me there?

[quote=“Szakalot;14605”]33% is way too low, thats sawbonez levels of regen and would make Aura unviable.

I like the idea of ramping up. So the longer you don’t get hit, the faster you regenerate.[/quote]

That’s some mad doublestandard there. Sawbonez and Aura should be able to self heal at the same rate. What the rate exactly should be, is a different story. Aura has the ability to heal multiple allies at the same time and is fragile while sawbonez can pack a second punch and is forced to be in the frontlines to be effective. The conclusion that Aura has to have the higher healing rate doesn’t really make sense to me.

(CPTpurrfect) #30

So just remniscend:

  • Ramping up healing speed seems to be something we can mostly agree on
  • Still open wether Aura should have a slowed heal or not
  • Defibrilator CD discussion will be continued once we are done with the above

About wether Aura should have a weaker self heal or not, I have another idea:
Why not simply say that healing ramps up slower for her? (My opinion that her heal should be weaker in some way is obvious I’d say, but I’m open to discuss how and how much - I’m always open to discussions as long as they don’t end in a rant or I can’t accept the basic concept which was presented to me)

(R5on11c) #31

[quote=“sunsetRivet;14736”]

  • Defibrilator CD discussion will be continued once we are done with the above[/quote]

Holy shiet, just let go of the Defibrilator would ya? You can find a little wrong thing everywhere but in the Defib. Cut the health required to finish somone off. Reduce the Dmg required to gib. Reduce the invuln time after revive. The possiblities are endless but why on earth would you fiddle with the only single one thing that doesn’t need altering?

(Ardez1) #32

Agreed with R5on11c. It doesn’t need a cooldown. There are a lot of other variables that can be modified. In particular I think the reducing damage to finish downed enemies option should be explored.

Also, a lot has been said about Aura’s healing station, but has the augment Potent Packs been looked at in relation to this? Is it possible that we are overlooking the augment and putting too much focus into the station itself? I feel like the current view of it being too strong is when Potent Packs is involved on the players loadout. I have used Aura with and without the potent packs, and it definitely seems overpowered with the augment there, but reasonable without it.

(Szakalot) #33

Why should they? Sawbonez can heal himself whenever he wants by throwing a medpack at his feet. Aura has to plonk a station down, which either means the station goes wherever she goes, or she doesn’t go anywhere - so the station can stay and protect teammates.

Two vastly different healing mechanics. Also, Aura is the squishest merc in a game, dying from very few shots. So faster self-heal is less impactful for her, than it would be for sawbonez.

(R5on11c) #34

[quote=“Szakalot;14774”][quote=“R5on11c;14683”]

That’s some mad doublestandard there. Sawbonez and Aura should be able to self heal at the same rate. What the rate exactly should be, is a different story. Aura has the ability to heal multiple allies at the same time and is fragile while sawbonez can pack a second punch and is forced to be in the frontlines to be effective. The conclusion that Aura has to have the higher healing rate doesn’t really make sense to me.

[/quote]

Why should they? Sawbonez can heal himself whenever he wants by throwing a medpack at his feet. Aura has to plonk a station down, which either means the station goes wherever she goes, or she doesn’t go anywhere - so the station can stay and protect teammates.

Two vastly different healing mechanics. Also, Aura is the squishest merc in a game, dying from very few shots. So faster self-heal is less impactful for her, than it would be for sawbonez.[/quote]

Have you ever played aura? You can dispense healing to yourself on demand. If played right your are just as mobile (or even more) as sawbonez. The healing station also gives you the (unfair) advantage of constant heal. That that selfheal is even faster than Sawbonez doesn’t make a lot of sense since you can simply camp-heal-gun out your enemies and move on to the next corner while almost loosing no time on the healing station, since you can pick it up and re-place it at will. So no, she DOES go almost everywhere. In fact she is the fastest class and can do ouright ridiculous manuevers that would mean the certain death to every other class.

(Szakalot) #35

Have you read what I said:

either station goes wherever she goes

or station stays to help teammates.

Sawbonez can heal anyone AND go wherever he wants to go.

(R5on11c) #36

As the limitation to the heal dispensing are the same on both mercs (you put healing packs down, you put the station down) your words make a sentence but not an argument. They have the same restrictions when it comes to mobility. There is no use in arguing any further with you if you still want to proclaim that there is a difference gameplaywise.

(R5on11c) #37

I do not say she doesn’t require the healing rate, as she is easily taken down. Though, the ridiculous healingrate shouldn’t compensate for that as her current max HP is just a measurement on how one-hittable she is. A little health boost and a little speed slowdown + a lower self heal would fit perfectly fine.

But at the current state he healing station makes her basically invincible from everything that doesn’t ourtight obliterate her and a self heal factor THAT high, is not the way to balance it.

(Szakalot) #38

Let me break it down for you:

Sawbonez can run from one position to another and drop healthpacks for teammates. I’m not certain how long they stay in game, but probably something around 30-45sec, long enough to matter in the upcoming engagements. This allows Sawbonez to create pockets of healpower in different corners of the map. He can also throw the medpacks, and if you combine it with a jump (or long jump) the distance potential increases, allowing you to heal people at a distance, out of harms way.

Aura on the other hand has to plonk the station down to heal anybody. If Aura wants to heal two people in different areas, the station cooldown of 5 seconds is the minimum bottleneck. Aura’s station can also be destroyed, negating any healing potential until cooldown is restored. Due to her low HP Aura also relies on her station during combat. This, combined with her close-combat gamestyle (excluding the blishlok loadouts) forces Aura’s station to be permanently fixed to her location. She can’t plonk the station down and run off to fight enemies, as she will most certainly die.

I definitely AGREE that the present self-heal rate for Aura is too much. But reducing it to sawbonez self-heal rate will make Aura unviable.

(Ruvan) #39

The trouble with the healing station mechanic is that it’s too simple and binary. There’s not enough depth to healing stations to balance them properly.

I wouldn’t try to balance the healing by outright nerfing it but by adding some more nuances to it.

For example, you could add a secondary ability to the original mechanic that slowly heals everyone in the vicinity of the Aura. The turret itself could be given a longer cooldown and resistance to explosives; becoming much more like an ultimate ability. Activating the turret would disable the slow passive heal for say 20 seconds.

Honestly, the problem with Sawbonez in comparison to Aura at the moment is just the amount of healing he can put out in comparison. Changing Aura might be sufficient, however, it might also be a good idea to grant Sawbonez another Med Kit or faster recharge.

(Runeforce) #40

[quote=“exaltedBolt;15227”]
For example, you could add a secondary ability to the original mechanic that slowly heals everyone in the vicinity of the Aura.[/quote]

You could, but then Phoenix would be a jobless merc. :slight_smile:

Give Saw same movement speed as Aura, problems solved.