ATTN: SD - The future of Dirty Bomb esports depend on this post!

(moccasinSign) #1

Hello lovely Dirty Bombers, forum residents and more importantly, employees at SPLASH DAMAGE and/or NEXON.

I made a strawpoll for you guys!

http://www.strawpoll.me/11184912

First off, allow me to thank you for a great game and thank you for your increased efforts to optimize the game for us!

Now, let’s begin.

As the developers have stated on more than one occasion, Dirty Bomb is a highly competitive game at its core.

With that in mind, i have an opinion on why the competitive scene has more or less died dried out completely. Additionally i believe the problem at hand also has a big deal to do with the declining player numbers, even if they aren’t as horrible as some would have you believe.

What am i getting at here? I’ll tell you.

Prize pools.

The single biggest attraction for competitive players. Cash prizes are literally nonexistent for Dirty Bomb at the time of this post and has been for quite some time now. This is sad, because it means that there’s no incentive for top level competitive teams to practice and play the game, nor are there currently any tournaments or cups running that cater to these.

What can SD do as a developer and we as a community?

I have a proposal.

Look to DotA 2 and how they have managed to amass the largest prize pools in gaming history (The International).

Crowdsourcing!

Now you might argue that Dirty Bomb is a minor title compared to a mastodon like DotA 2. But evidence suggests even smaller titles can make it work!

“As a testament to the effectiveness of this model, a smaller competing MOBA, Hi-Rez Studios’ Smite, crowdfunded $2 million to its world championship prize pool in 2014, making it the third-largest esports tournament of the year. Not bad for a clearly smaller title!”

Wow! $2 million :smiley:

Let’s take a closer look. A lot of that revenue comes from selling cosmetics, something that probably wouldn’t be possible to the same degree in Dirty Bomb. But what if they bumped up the prices of the current in game shop items by, let’s say $0.50 and let that go towards a Dirty Bomb championship prize pool?
that might scare some away because it’s more pricey, but it might also incentivize some people to actually spend money on the game, just to support the competitive scene! I know i would personally be one of those people.

But let’s not disregard cosmetics completely. While i believe most would frown upon ridiculous looking top hats (Yes, i’m looking at you Team Fortress 2), i don’t see a problem as long as you continue with the current way of doing cosmetics, by not changing the models, only doing tasteful re skins which give no discernible advantage in game, in terms of coloration. We are, of course, looking forward to the next event which will bring skins, but perhaps some permanently available skins wouldn’t be completely out of the way, especially if some % of their purchase would go toward funding a respectable Dirty Bomb prize pool?

This is just an idea that i had, i’m sure SD/Nexon are well aware of the way crowdsourcing works. But perhaps with enough support from the community, they will look into this option more actively. That is my hope at least, and i believe it could work. Perhaps SD/Nexon already has a proper prize pool in mind for when the game gets out of beta, who knows?

What do you think?

I apologize for any grammatical errors in this post.

Thank you for reading my 2¢.

/Katarn

Sources:
http://www.kilkku.com/blog/2015/09/the-secret-sauce-of-dota-2-crowdsourcing-and-crowdfunding/

(Nail) #2

nope, it’s because the game hasn’t been released yet, no sense having tourneys while game is in constant flux

(B_Montiel) #3

Don’t forget that mobas, cod and cs:go did not create competitive scene in video games. Prize does not make the competitive scene interesting for normal people, it just brings some pro players wannabes in the mix, which is worsening the taste for most people in my view.

I’ve played numerous games where they were no prize pool at the end or every tourney or championship, and were still praised for the quality of their comp scene : W:ET, Urban Terror, BF2, FIrst year of COD4, ET:QW, first years of tf2. I even played chivalry competitively, we were a good 20 teams in Europe which is far enough to make the community live and the scene was pretty exciting.

Currently, we don’t have the mandatory requirements to make ANY scene live : community servers, proper admin tools for game commands AND server tunings. Content which is not good enough in the view of many players (all the sw maps need rework), and game still oscillating way too much in terms of balance. So before planning any money comp scene scenario, let’s start by the beginning, shall we ?

(moccasinSign) #4

@Nail

other games have had tournaments while they were still technically in beta, anyway… i’m not saying it has to be right now, just somewhere down the line it would be nice. Or at least some kind of promise that if they get the game to a certain state where it’s playable competitively, they’ll throw some cash prizes in there.

@B. Montiel

I can understand your viewpoint, but i know for a fact that a lot of people are interested in CS:GO, LoL and so on more or less solely because they have huge amounts of players and an active high level competitive scene, which i believe stems from having huge amounts of players AND cash prizes, so they can justify practicing 10 hours a day. Perhaps most who are enticed by these things are younger players, but they also make up the majority of players.

I have also played numerous games competitively with little to no prizes, Battlefield Vietnam, BF2, CoD2, CoD 4/MW & ET:QW (to be fair though, some of my clan mates went on to win at quakecon in ETQW with Dignitas, that was $22000 to 1st, not too shabby, but there weren’t a lot of those prize pools around). But those were different times imo, things are changing for esports and the mainstream players. I agree that a lot of things need work, but i believe it has come a long way, though there are still quirks and bugs to be addressed before it will function properly for competitive play. All i’m saying is that down the line, i do not see SD/Nexon throwing down big prize pools that could interest major teams/organizations of today and i certainly don’t see any big sponsors throwing down that kind of money with the playerbase as it is currently. Therefore i believe a crowdfunded tournament could kick start the scene. Who knows, maybe it wont be necessary, but still, why not do it?

I certainly agree with starting at the beginning, but as i said, i believe the game has come a long way and i can see it being viable for top end competitive play in less than a year, maybe that’s optimistic. You could say overwatch is oscillating too much in terms of balance, but it’s scene has been doing great and i know for a fact that plenty of top players left DB to play Overwatch a long time ago, while OW was still in beta mind you and they still haven’t completely finetuned their competitive mode either. I’m not saying DB should copy Overwatch or any other game, i’m just saying that i believe the game is close to being ready and that it would be nice with some feedback regarding their plans with the game.

Also i think it’s fine if you enjoy smaller scenes, so do i. However, i also very much like to watch professional SC2 tournaments and i’d love to see if a game like DB could “get up there” so i can watch that too :slight_smile:

sorry for wall of text :stuck_out_tongue:

/Katarn

(BananaSlug) #5

there will be open cup like next week i think

(Kendo) #6

Great post Katarnz! I hope SD will at least take this into consideration if they see this. Like you said who knows…maybe they already have plans, and if they do it would be great if they were vocal about them right about now. Sure they still have a lot things to fix, but hearing SOMETHING about competitive plans in the near future would be cool.

-Kendo

(B_Montiel) #7

[quote=“moccasinSign;203414”]
wall of text :p[/quote]

You do give interesting points, but you’re definitely optimistic :p. The game is definitely close from turning good, but it already was 2 years ago now. It took them 2 years to solve issues that were already there a very long time ago. If it takes them 2 new years to implement what you’ve mentionned, the game will be dead. That’s why I consider they’d better focus on making minimal steps I mentionned above. And that’s not a lot of work.

About promoting the game, well, I honestly don’t know. Since SD is now owned by a chicken company, Nexon is quite silent to be honest…

They’ve been copying massive games systems since the beginning and I honestly consider they’ve failed all the way. So I’d better see them copying the usual system we see since pretty much the arrival of internet multiplayer gaming. Those systems work even if you have only 3k players playing your game. OW, mobas and cs:go ones does not work with a small population.

Couple things that also slow db down on the popularity field :

  • It’s a fast fps compared to most of the recent productions
  • W:ET rules are obviously too complicated nowadays
  • The learning curve is steep and you don’t turn into a awp master in 2 days
  • The game is running awfully bad on low spec pcs
  • Lack of content
(Jostabeere) #8

[quote=“moccasinSign;203414”]@Nail

other games have had tournaments while they were still technically in beta, anyway… i’m not saying it has to be right now, just somewhere down the line it would be nice. Or at least some kind of promise that if they get the game to a certain state where it’s playable competitively, they’ll throw some cash prizes in there.

[/quote]

Examples?

(SiegeFace) #9

Let the game be completed, released and marketed the hell out of first, let the player base grow, then work on the competitive scene. Dirty Bomb, although fantastic is still not in a polished state imo to start growing the comp scene.

(TheStrangerous) #10

I dunno about the crowdfunding stuff, look at Kicktarter fails. Or maybe I worry too much.

My obvious answer would be selling customizable skins, like hats, boots, gear, etc.

(moccasinSign) #11

@B. Montiel

I definitely agree with your sentiment to start at the beginning. SW mode needs some degree of fixing, agreed. Admin tools and so on. Definitely. I am just of the opinion that if they were to actually work on these things, they could get sorted fairly quickly, especially with their previous work in mind. When it comes to game balance, you were right. However in the most recent patches i believe they have found a great balance and that balance is more than up to par and the balance changes going forward, i believe are going to be miniscule compared to recent changes in Overwatch for example.

I agree with your list, with some exceptions and a different point of view.

Couple things that also slow db down on the popularity field :

  • It’s a fast fps compared to most of the recent productions
  • W:ET rules are obviously too complicated nowadays
  • The learning curve is steep and you don’t turn into a awp master in 2 days
  • The game is running awfully bad on low spec pcs
  • Lack of content
  • While i agree that it’s faced paced nature makes it less mainstream, i believe it can be a positive in terms of popularity, it is niche to some degree, but not one without a fanbase.
  • Same thing for the “complicated” rules. It’s really quite simple, it just isn’t standardized in the way of the extremely simple gamemodes of CS:GO or KoTH maps in OW, however even Overwatch has proven that the payload (EV) gamemode is simple enough for the masses to a degree. Therefore i believe that this too could be a positive for the game’s competitive future, a way to stand out.
  • Learning curve is too steep… I don’t think it is. I think the game is rather easy to pick up and get in to, if you have played any other FPS. Easy to learn, hard to master imo, and that is a proven winning combination. Look at Quake, SC2, DotA 2 and so on. Especially StarCraft has an extremely high learning curve with more or less constant possibilities to improve (build orders and so on). I believe this is a positive and when marketed correctly. Other companies believe in games that are fast paced with a steep learning curve, look at Overwatch or Id software’s Quake Champions, sure, they have a moba twist… but the same can be said for Dirty Bomb.
  • They have addressed optimization heavily recently in their summer crunch updates and with continued work i believe most of these issues could soon be a thing of the past :slight_smile: however sceptical i was until recently, my personal doubts have been put to shame with the recent updates. I have gone from having 30-60 fps, to having over 200 at times and no drops below 60. So i believe :wink:
  • Lack of content? I see people saying this, but they seem to use this argument for any game that isn’t popular? How does CS:GO have a lot of content? or League of Legends? Or SC2? Take CS:GO, same objectives, different maps. League of Legends even more so, only 1 map and 1 gamemode. I believe Dirty Bomb has plenty of content and i also believe they have plenty more great content coming our way o:)

@Jostabeere

Overwatch has had cash prize pools about every week since beta… The balance of that game has been in constant flux and the competitive ruleset is far from perfected, even now after release. I believe Smite might also have had cash prizes in beta, but i’m not 100% sure. Anyway, i doubt Overwatch has been the only game. However, my point is that the game doesn’t need to be 100% perfect, it just needs to work for competitive play. Granted, at the moment this is not the case, but with some focus from the devs, i believe it could be very soon, beta or not. Not that i am saying it has to be during beta, but i wouldn’t disregard it as an option, based on it being beta alone, as long as the competitive mode is ready for it.

@SiegeFace

I agree. This post is not so much a cry for them to focus only on competitive, but more a way of raising the awareness of this particular model and see what the DB community feels about that option. Also because i’m a bit scared for the future, even as i am hopeful. It is another way to market the game imo and hopefully make sure that the game won’t die without ever having known a proper comp scene, or at least, a more modern one. You’re right, it is not ready for comp play but i think that it could be, very soon :slight_smile:

@TheStrangerous

Look at my examples instead of kickstarter, because i wouldn’t call kickstarter comparable at all in this scenario. Look at my example of DotA 2 or in particular, Smite. If they can pull it off, surely Dirty Bomb can too :blush:

My obvious answer would be selling customizable skins, like hats, boots, gear, etc.

Please, no. This is what i mentioned in my post if you bothered to read it. This is what i called “ridiculous looking top hats”.

While i believe most would frown upon ridiculous looking top hats (Yes, i’m looking at you Team Fortress 2), i don’t see a problem as long as you continue with the current way of doing cosmetics, by not changing the models, only doing tasteful re skins which give no discernible advantage in game, in terms of coloration.

What i am getting at here, is that i don’t want purchasable ghillie suits or dark skins, whatever, that could give you an advantage. I can see a top hat perhaps wouldn’t give you an advantage, but rather a disadvantage. However i think it would be sorely out of place in Dirty Bomb with cosmetics that alter the model, at least if it is in a big way, like top hats. It would be a possibility to not have these be allowed in competitive play, sure, but i believe it would ruin it for many on just public servers. This is just my personal opinion of course.

/Katarn

(blonk) #12

I’m not joking when I say that every single person I’ve introduced to Dirty Bomb hasn’t stuck with it for more than a week or will only play it when sufficiently cajoled. And the sad thing is I don’t think that’s a unique story. There is a barrier of entry to this game that is difficult to pin down, almost like either you click with it (because you played ET or are just receptive to the idea) or you don’t.

(SiegeFace) #13

@moccasinSign Agreed, it should be on their bucket list after release! They already have a niche community here and there is so much room for it to grow. And Im with you 100% it wont die out with a decent comp scene, but I think a good casual (im talking pubs here) system it would be even better.

(Nibbles02) #14

I’m not joking when I say that every single person I’ve introduced to Dirty Bomb hasn’t stuck with it for more than a week or will only play it when sufficiently cajoled. And the sad thing is I don’t think that’s a unique story. There is a barrier of entry to this game that is difficult to pin down, almost like either you click with it (because you played ET or are just receptive to the idea) or you don’t.[/quote]

The friends I tried to get into the game left both because of the lack of a party system because they always ended up on the opposite team as me when they wanted to play together, and they thought the slow card acquisition rate made getting a decent and favorable card for the mercs you play, let alone the mercs themselves since they cost 35-50,000 credits, really difficult to do for a first-time player.

That second part, however, they said, would be fine if we could just party up and play several consecutive games on the same side over the weekends.

(moccasinSign) #15

@blonk & @Nibbles

I have the same problem. Only my closest friend stuck with it till a bit over lvl 10. But to be fair, they never enjoyed games like it before. They never played quake, ET and such and they’re well spoken for when it comes to games already, they play WoW, LoL and maybe a little CS:GO and Overwatch. It’s really not their genre and as they’re at my age, perhaps they feel it’s too late to learn.

I believe casual matchmaking with a party system will fix that issue and make the game much more welcoming to new players, like Overwatch had from the beginning. But of course, lots of us are veterans and would be really sad if the server browser went away, so we’re glad that they decided to go with the best of both worlds :slight_smile:

/Katarn

(B_Montiel) #16

[quote=“moccasinSign;203512”]@B. Montiel

I definitely agree with your sentiment to start at the beginning. SW mode needs some degree of fixing, agreed. Admin tools and so on. Definitely. I am just of the opinion that if they were to actually work on these things, they could get sorted fairly quickly, especially with their previous work in mind. When it comes to game balance, you were right. However in the most recent patches i believe they have found a great balance and that balance is more than up to par and the balance changes going forward, i believe are going to be miniscule compared to recent changes in Overwatch for example.
[/quote]
Well, I do hope you’re right. Community servers is an unresolved question since alpha. Since late 2013, issues were raised if they were coming or not. Prior to current dbnation, they were 2 or 3 communities trying to raise a comp community in this game, one including Raziel before she got hired by Nexon, and one after one, they left the game. The first ones were built from long time SD fans, who were expecting what I just mentionned (community servers, admin tools, and eventually a proper sdk on top of that). So I do hope they’ll get moving on those subjects. But that’s not easy to resolve in any way.

(The_N00Ba) #17

All I can really add is from what I have experienced in life it takes time to do things right. Hyping things up before it is time to hype things up can end up leading to a lot of bad things.

(moccasinSign) #18

@B. Montiel I remember some of those communities, though their names elude me right now. Particularly the one with Raziel, that was the most recent one to close up i think.

A lot has happened since then, the game has improved in so many ways and if their last summer crunch update fixes most of the remaining issues with performance for most people, i would think the game is ready for some serious focus on the competitive side. Even if most players have long since forgot about DB, given up on it’s competitive mode and moved on, i have great faith in SD and their abilities as a developer, particularly when it comes to the competitive side of things. I think they could make short work of the remaining issues regarding this side of the game if they chose to focus on it. I know that a great part of the players who left would be amenable to return to the scene, because they did not leave because they didn’t like the game. They left because they thought it was dead (at least as a competitive game) as immature an opinion as that is, considering the game is still in beta.

ET:QW worked great in competitive and i believe Dirty Bomb has proved better in many ways already, even if there’s definitely some important issues left to address before it’s ready for comp play. I also think that Dirty Bomb has had way more thought gone into it from the beginning when it comes to comp play and it shows, it really is a new game for a new era. Even though i myself have doubted the future of the game at times, they have proved their capabilities as a developer, even if progress has been rather slow at times. I think they have put more manpower and energy into Dirty Bomb lately and hopefully that will show off with the final summer crunch update, not to mention Dockyard and other new stuff. Just my opinion of course. o:)

/Katarn

(Dysfnal) #19

@moccasinSign I think you’re overlooking the fact that SD is a small company, and the DB development team is even smaller. This means we must be more patient while they try to add new content and fix problems.

(moccasinSign) #20

@Dysfnal

I don’t think i am, maybe a bit. But they said they were hoping to release in 2016 iirc. I am saying that i think comp could be fully ready in less than a year, i don’t think that is overly optimistic. I am trying to be patient, but it’s hard and i know most people aren’t that patient, especially combined with what i feel is a lack of proper communication, though they have improved in that regard immensely i think.

/Katarn