As a Nader player, here are some changes that I think are fair.

(watsyurdeal) #1

  1. Change nades, and other explosives for that matter, to allow gibbing if they deal at least 80% of their total damage. So this means Naders nades will only gib if they deal 72 damage, so basically a direct hit only will gib.

  2. Change Matyrdom to only work when you have at least one nade available when you were downed.

  3. When you are downed, your nades do NOT regenerate, and if that’s not possible, then the only nades that you had before you were downed can be used. So if died with one nade, and had two available, that’s all you get to use. That 1 nade for Martydom.

  4. Change Martydom to be more like the description, when you use it, you drop all the nades you had when you die, not only gibbing you, but if you had 5 for example, you’d drop 5 nades, basically a live cluster missle. This will lead to some interesting plays, as long as the nades dropped are Naders and NOT Fraggers.

These changes I think will add a little more depth to her, and make her a little more useful in comp play as a more skill indexed Fragger. Where her damage and usefulness comes from direct contact nades and the power of martydom as a cluster tactic. Where as Fragger has her beat in AoE, primary weapon damage, and health.

(scrub_lord) #2

I like the idea of Matrydom using up your Launcher ammunition. If people decide they want to akbar someone, then they have to regenerate all their nades again when they respawn.

There is literally no downside to using Matrydom atm, besides being an idiot and gibbing yourself when you would’ve been revived.

(watsyurdeal) #3

That’s the idea, gives people less to complain about since apparently not knifing a Nader, is harder to resist than a red head (or at least for me anyway).

Plus, it’s getting old landing direct hits and not getting rewarded at least a gib to deny revive chains.

(Gi.Am) #4

A Nader tread already before the free rotation? hmm didn’t we have that discussion already?
Anyways.

  1. Sounds good to be honest but would be a direct buff for Nader and potentialy nerf stronger explosives (nothing wrong with that per se but some people will not like that).

  2. We could do that but only if all cooldowns would work that way, for consistancy reasons. would then have to adjust cooldowns accordingly and see how that new system plays out.

      1. that would introduce a whole can of inconsistence to martyrdom. Right now if a Nader dies you know 100% that she is gonna martyrdom you if you come close (unless that player fell asleep). If she can only martyrdom 50-70% of the time people will try to knife her again and grief when they die (also the concept of martyrdom becomes harder to grasp for new players).
        Same goes for inconsistances in the damage/range. Now people roughly know how far they have to get and what Mercs will survive and what not. If that changes depending on the ammount of left grenades people can’t judge that so easy. Lastly making the MArtyrdom damage dependable on the amount of grenades would mean that martyrdom is the most effective when you didn’t fire your shots. So, when she gets surprise killed or when she decides to charge into a group of people and gets killed on purpose (people will love that).
(watsyurdeal) #5

Well people need to be paying attention, if she fires a volley at you, she might not have anymore nades and then you can finish her with ease. And if she does well she still has to gib herself, so she’s denying herself a revive to kill what she can.

[quote=“Gi.Am;36967”]
Same goes for inconsistances in the damage/range. Now people roughly know how far they have to get and what Mercs will survive and what not. If that changes depending on the ammount of left grenades people can’t judge that so easy. Lastly making the MArtyrdom damage dependable on the amount of grenades would mean that martyrdom is the most effective when you didn’t fire your shots. So, when she gets surprise killed or when she decides to charge into a group of people and gets killed on purpose (people will love that).[/quote]

If she just charges into a group she’ll die before she even gets close enough, and right now players can still do that, and it typically doesn’t work. Martyrdom is best used indoors and when flanking enemies, so they have nowhere to run when it goes off.

If this change was added you have to remember it’s Nader’s nades, not fraggers, so they won’t deal as much damage if it’s not at least 3 or more. It’s a gamble that people have to consciously make, it makes the character more interesting and have more depth.

([GER] eclipsE) #6

Tbh i changed my habbit, since Nader is there, to only knife Players really close to me. I mean if im eye to eye with them, i knife for gib and even if its a nader, her nade will not be fast enough to damage me more then 10hp.
And as someone who plays nader every once in a while (my only Cobalt so far is a Nader with Hochfir) i think her cd should be slightly increased for the grenades. And direct Hits should be no thing anymore. It should be more like in Enemy Territory with the Nade Launchers.
Another thing that bothers me, even when i myself play nader is: Why does she not need to reaload the NadeLauncher? Do the Nades fall into the Launcher, when she draws it? No? Thought so.

(affableTricycle) #7

What would you guys think of giving her machine pistols instead of primaries and leaving everything else as is?

(watsyurdeal) #8

Hell no, she’s an assault class, she’s built to kill people, she’s not a support like Sparks.

(Gi.Am) #9

Ok while I stay by my opinion that Martyrdom is a fairer and better ability if it stays consistent, reasonably potent but still avoidable. My interest is peaked

So how does it work exactly? Instead of having one Fragger nade she gets her own nades, so I assume the radius is, also that of Naders or are we keeping the Fragger radius? But what if I have more than one in the pocket, am I only spawning one nade that deals more damage? is the radius increased together with the damage? are 5 Nades popping out all over the place at once? Is she popping one nade after another?

depending on the workings the damage gradient can look quite different.
zero nade - zero damage
1 nade - 75 damage
2 nades - 150 damage
3 nades - 225 damage
4 nades - 300 damage
5 nades - 375 damage

now damagewise the break even point with the current system is 2 nades. at 3 nades you could kill every merc (yeah for succesfully blowing up Rhinos balls) .

If Martyrdom acted as a single nade with set radius (either Naders or Fraggers), it would either mean that the damage falloff gets compressed (i.e. a Rhino might survive 3 nades if he is half way in the explosion but would die at the same spot if it were 4). 5 nades would look and feel roughly like an Artystrike i.e. if you’re in you’re dead except it would work indoors. Alternative is that the damage fall off is manipulated to only making the center deadlier which would mean above 3 nades is a waste.

Radius and damage gets adjusted dependending on the scaling would either mean UP or OP low nade counts would result in weak nades that are easy to dodge, high nade counts would be highdamage nades that are impossible to evade.

5 Nades that Pop out instantly is basically the same as if a nader simply would spam her whole arsenal into a room. depending on the spread it might not kill anyone but would produce damage that can’t be avoided.

one after another would be a non sensical solution, would be fun tho and create an interesting area denial effect. but people would propably hate when everytime a nader dies an area gets block up to 5 seconds.

(watsyurdeal) #10

Basically, it’s like this, imagine the nades from her grenade launcher ok?

Imagine her dropping those when she martyr’s, same radius, damage, everything. But the more she has in reserve when she dies, the more she drops, so instead of you dropping a single nade, you drop a cluster, that can be pretty powerful if she uses it right. Imagine a pack of people sitting by Aura, you run in trying to get what you can and suicide when they’re huddled around her healing station. Or you go down near where you planted the bomb and destroy anything that gets too close to the plant zone. It can be pretty good stuff, and totally fair since you actually give up something and have to have a certain set of circumstances available to use it.

(Szakalot) #11

you want martyrdom to be consistent above else.

People already rage, even though its perfectly dodgable. I’d rather not have to guess how many nades she had left before she died.

(BanHammer) #12

I’ll probably receive dislikes but eh…

I’ve had Nader for about 2 weeks or so. She’s now my main. She’s not overpowered.

  • Martydom is annoying. I get it. But any class and easily out run. Yes, you’ll take some damage but if you’re a Rhino, you’re slow but with all that health you can easily survive but still take damage.

  • Think smart. You hate Nader’s Martydom. Make it a habit to not go near Nader when you kill her. You can always trick her into activating her martydom but running towards her but then run back after.

  • Yeah, she can launch grenades across the ‘map’. But they can’t be cooked like Fraggers giving you a chance to escape. The only thing annoying is running into the grenade.

I think Nader ‘nerf’ should have 4 grenades instead of 6. Maybe giving her a perk that allows back up to 6 but with one of the ‘worser’ weapons instead of the croztni.

(fetchingSeahorse) #13

Nader doesn’t need nerfs… She is fine as is. She is kinda of a weaker faster fragger with more of an emphasis on area denial than fragging.

(GregHouseMD) #14

Nader is annoying if - and only if - you don’t know how to play against her. It doesn’t mean she needs nerfing.

(noupperlobeman) #15

There should never, ever be a mechanic that rewards death.

I do not support your changes to martyrdom.

(Zerisus) #16

Martyrdom is easy to dodge yet feels pretty cheap. It’s bad design to reward dying, they shouldn’t even have given her that ability in the first place.

(sharpSubmarine) #17

Sawbonez: defib + medpacks
Sparks: revivr + small medpacks
Arty: artillery strike + ammo packs

The list goes on, but I really don’t want to write them all.

Anyway, talking about Nader, I actually think she’s fine as she is right now. Complicating her martyrdom skill as suggested by someone in the thread is interesting, but maybe too restrictive, nobody would actually use the ability anymore.