As a guy who played Spy and Infiltrator, my thoughts on Phantom are....

(watsyurdeal) #1

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41581”]Bumping this, because I have thought of way to implement my idea for his cloak.

  • First, get rid of the armor, or at least make it so he only takes 50% of incoming damage while cloaked.
  • Second, have his cloak make him completely invisible unless his speed goes above a certain point. What’s the point? The fastest he can move, walking, holding his Katana. When his speed goes above that, make him more visible.
  • Also make him flicker every time he’s shot, so the enemy can track him more easily.

Do these things first, see how he plays[/quote]

The thing is cloak is a stealth tool, not a tanking tool. If I get caught making my move I should be punished for it, leaving the cloak draining when damaged works too I think, kind of a punishment for not tricking the enemy on escape. I’m willing to bet you make it easier to kill Phantom when he’s caught, people will stop complaining, until they face a Phantom that’s damn good, just like Vasilli honestly. Only annoying when used by a good player.

The main problem doesn’t seem to be his smgs or his katana imo, it’s the fact that he can use those things, and take so much abuse.

(_Sniff_) #2

I am on the fence about his tanking. I like it but I think it’s a wee bit too powerful. Maybe the first hit or two gets eaten but the rest shouldn’t.

I was gonna link this thread but you just posted :(… shazbot

http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/comment/40985/#Comment_40985

(watsyurdeal) #3

Yea, more or less

Infiltrator was flexible, and great at harassment, I feel like that’s what Phantom should be.

I don’t feel like cloak working as a second health bar is doing that for him. Just makes him easier to abuse.

Also, food for thought…what if the katana function liked the knife in cs go? The lunge misses, long recovery time, and you’re very vulnerable, but if it hits, powerful attack and you recover DRASTICALLY faster for a second follow up swipe.

(viridianMiner) #4

The thing is, stealth tools are useless against players who are awake and have properly working eyes, which is the very reason why he has a damage shield in the first place.

(watsyurdeal) #5

But that in turn makes it impossible for new players to deal with him…

So it’s a matter of what’s better for the game, I say the damage shield goes. The Spy didn’t need it, neither does Phantom.

(_Sniff_) #6

You know, you bring up a good point. New players. I played in Alpha when all mercs were free and counter play was a huge deal. This is not the case anymore. I think that cemented my opinion about the shield. Lower dat shit.

(KangaJoo) #7

Maybe it’s my video settings but even when I heard a Phantom running around right at me, I couldn’t see him for the life of me. Like I knew he was there and was looking for some sort of shimmer effect but I seriously couldn’t see anything and then he just appears knifing me in the chest as I’m staring right at him.

(watsyurdeal) #8

Bumping this, because I have thought of way to implement my idea for his cloak.

  • First, get rid of the armor, or at least make it so he only takes 50% of incoming damage while cloaked.
  • Second, have his cloak make him completely invisible unless his speed goes above a certain point. What’s the point? The fastest he can move, walking, holding his Katana. When his speed goes above that, make him more visible.
  • Also make him flicker every time he’s shot, so the enemy can track him more easily.

Do these things first, see how he plays

(LANshark) #9

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41581”]Bumping this, because I have thought of way to implement my idea for his cloak.

  • First, get rid of the armor, or at least make it so he only takes 50% of incoming damage while cloaked.
  • Second, have his cloak make him completely invisible unless his speed goes above a certain point. What’s the point? The fastest he can move, walking, holding his Katana. When his speed goes above that, make him more visible.
  • Also make him flicker every time he’s shot, so the enemy can track him more easily.

Do these things first, see how he plays[/quote]
I would go with the first and third idea on the list. The second change only seems like it would limit his mobility as he would have to walk everywhere in a pretty fast paced game and limit counter play to just spraying wildly and hoping you hit something.

I find that he can stomp pubs because no one is looking for him but he doesn’t do well in comp (from my experience, yours might be different). I can see a stealthed phantom well enough, you just have to wait for the phantom to do something stupid like running long distances (they seem to always assume the invis is always 100% effective and no one can see them).

(watsyurdeal) #10

[quote=“LANshark;41701”]
I would go with the first and third idea on the list. The second change only seems like it would limit his mobility as he would have to walk everywhere in a pretty fast paced game and limit counter play to just spraying wildly and hoping you hit something. I find that he can stomp pubs because no one is looking for him but he doesn’t do well in comp (from my experience, yours might be different).[/quote]

I disagree, I think his mobility would be fine

He’d cover that much distance, completely invisible.

(bontsa) #11

But that in turn makes it impossible for new players to deal with him…

So it’s a matter of what’s better for the game, I say the damage shield goes. The Spy didn’t need it, neither does Phantom.[/quote]

I’ve dropped out of the TF2 development long ago, but I do recall there being a cloak similar to what we see now in DB; Dead Ringer? It also had great damage reduction once invisible, although you couldn’t be invisible before taking damage and activating it. Not saying DB should resemble TF2 or whatnot, just bringing it up since it’s thrown into stealth discussion overall pretty often.

Nevertheless, I think increasing cooldown would force Phantom player think more how to use his shield. Used it up to cover yourself from Fragger nade? No hopping behind him to pull his pants down right away. Unlike now how it seems that you can simply take a deep breath a… oh, it’s back up, let’s go.

(watsyurdeal) #12

The problem with it was that Spies could basically just tank large amount of damage and become battle Spies.

Here’s an example

(LANshark) #13

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;41704”]
I disagree, I think his mobility would be fine

He’d cover that much distance, completely invisible.[/quote]
I concede. THe visual evidence is to much. THe only thing i see about that is if you had to cross an area that is being shot at (which you shouldn’t have to do).

(GregHouseMD) #14

If he’s completely invisible, that would just make him an absolute death sentence for anyone within that range, though. He’d just appear out of nowhere, murder you, and run away. Or murder a lot of other people. What’s the answer to that?

I know, I know; recon mercs. What about pubs? At that point, it’d be pointless to play anything else in pubs.

(watsyurdeal) #15

[quote=“GregHouseMD;43505”]If he’s completely invisible, that would just make him an absolute death sentence for anyone within that range, though. He’d just appear out of nowhere, murder you, and run away. Or murder a lot of other people. What’s the answer to that?

I know, I know; recon mercs. What about pubs? At that point, it’d be pointless to play anything else in pubs.[/quote]

Not really, because you have to consider that Phantom is moving at a slower pace than everyone else, if he sprints his position is revealed. But since he’s walking Proxies, Auras, etc can easily get out of the range of his Katana, so he’ll have to be smart. Plus, there’s still that noise cloak makes when it’s active.

Not only that, but you also have to realize the Katana only instantly kills light mercs, so Aura, Proxy, and Sparks. Everyone else will take a second swing, and by the time you do get it you’re already taking some hits. So it wouldn’t really be too unfair to have perfect cloak, especially since even walking, those lighter mercs will be faster than you.

The thing is right now, pub players are going to get screwed over if they don’t learn to pay attention. If they do, shutting down Phantom is really easy, the only thing that isn’t so easy to deal with is how his cloak just eats up bullets.

(PurpleNurple) #16

Instead of armor I’d prefer him just having a constant stealth up when he’s not in combat where damage would knock him out of stealth. It would make it so phantom players need to actually be smart when they move around rather than charge head first into a pile of people and swing away like a blind folded child trying to knock out candy from a pinata.

(Severik) #17

@Watsyurdeal said:
Bumping this, because I have thought of way to implement my idea for his cloak.

  • First, get rid of the armor, or at least make it so he only takes 50% of incoming damage while cloaked.
  • Second, have his cloak make him completely invisible unless his speed goes above a certain point. What’s the point? The fastest he can move, walking, holding his Katana. When his speed goes above that, make him more visible.
  • Also make him flicker every time he’s shot, so the enemy can track him more easily.

Do these things first, see how he plays

I think all of those changes sound very reasonable. I recently started playing, and I was REALLY loving this game. I bought the starter pack and was ready to invest more into the game until Phantom was released. It just feels like he broke the awesome tug of war that would occur during most games. Now a team’s rate of success is directly proportional to how many Phantoms they have.

I don’t think they need to nerf him to the ground, but pick a philosophy of use for the character. His effective health–which his base is already generous–is his escape option, but not because it should absorb damage. Used correctly, stealth should be used for getting out of a pinch or positioning for maximum effectiveness.

I know things will get sorted out, but I’m curious how long it will take for reasonable changes to be made.

(watsyurdeal) #18

Not long it seems, prob going to see a nerf or two in a couple of weeks.