Are there any plans to improve match balance?

(HoopleDoople) #1

I played Dirty Bomb for several months in the past, but in December I made the decision to stop playing. The reason I quit was that Dirty Bomb failed to provide a consistently enjoyable experience. At its best Dirty Bomb was an amazing game, but far too often matches were dull, one-sided affairs. That’s not much fun for me when I’m winning and excruciating when I’m losing. With punishment for leaving matches (something I would normally be in favor of), I dreaded being stuck on a bad team.

I gave Dirty Bomb another try the past couple days and if anything my experience has been worse than before. The atrophy of my skills may be skewing this, but at the very least I feel confident that match balance hasn’t improved. I’m definitely not going to pick up Dirty Bomb at this time, but I would still love to come back to the game eventually.

What I would really like to know is if the devs are working on improving match balance. If and when match balance is improved I will eagerly return to the game to give it another try.

I really believe that a few simple changes could a massive difference. For example, disabling team switch except when one team is down 2+ players would almost entirely eliminate team stacking (which seems to be highly prevalent). An automatic steamroll detector could vastly reduce the time players spend in bad matches by ending them early. More ambitiously, using a hidden skill rating to balance unranked matches might start the overwhelming majority of matches off on even footing.

(Jesus) #2

Keep in mind its a beta game, they are working on it constantly and right now the balance is mostly in the hand of the players with Shuffle and Team Switches as tools. But it has the flaw to rely on players being Fair play or wanting a challenge and not an easy win. But often non of these conditions is present in a game so for now we are stuck with it.

(KnightDemon) #3

I’m still of the view that a simple thing like well programmed bots, maybe skyhammer, aura, or a new merc that is bot only, could really help the balancing situation until a player joins to take that spot. You tend to see less balancing problems at min level 10 and up servers, at least that has been my experience.

(Ctrix) #4

Ever since they “fixed” game balance last November it’s been impossible. Before that I felt it was pretty playable. Now it’s just bullshit 80% of the matches.
They don’t seem to care.
Have been playing the game less and less as a result. Actually havn’t started it up in over 2 weeks now.

(Faraleth) #5

The upcoming competitive changes should allow for far more people to be able to jump into this game-mode for far more balanced matches. The nature of pub matches is drop-in-drop-out, so you will simply NEVER have a properly balanced match, because it’s at fault by the very design.

However, the new competitive queue (which should be coming next week) will only allow people to queue as solo or a pair, meaning there will be a larger player pool to select from when match-making and the matches should be a hell of a lot fairer, matching people of equal skill.

Of course, there’s a lot of annoyance right now in regards to the 3-man, 4-man and 5-man queuing, but that’s another topic entirely :wink: just thought I’d mention those changes though, as they might favor you quite a lot! I know I’m certainly more keen to hop into comp because of it, when it lands. :stuck_out_tongue:

(HoopleDoople) #6

[quote=“Faraleth;150024”]The upcoming competitive changes should allow for far more people to be able to jump into this game-mode for far more balanced matches. The nature of pub matches is drop-in-drop-out, so you will simply NEVER have a properly balanced match, because it’s at fault by the very design.

However, the new competitive queue (which should be coming next week) will only allow people to queue as solo or a pair, meaning there will be a larger player pool to select from when match-making and the matches should be a hell of a lot fairer, matching people of equal skill.

Of course, there’s a lot of annoyance right now in regards to the 3-man, 4-man and 5-man queuing, but that’s another topic entirely :wink: just thought I’d mention those changes though, as they might favor you quite a lot! I know I’m certainly more keen to hop into comp because of it, when it lands. :stuck_out_tongue: [/quote]

It’s great to hear that stacked teams are finally being removed from competitive and I’ll definitely give it a try. Hopefully we’ll get a temporary incentive to play competitive to boost the player pool and provide enough data that players become more accurately ranked.

Regarding pub matches I would like to point out that they are not, in fact, drop-in-drop-out in design. On a game like TF2 joining a bad match isn’t a big deal because you can quickly switch servers without penalty. On Dirty Bomb you are heavily penalized for leaving matches in progress because you miss out on rewards and have a relatively lengthy delay before you can spawn when joining a new match.

Pub matches are always going to be extremely difficult to balance but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worth trying. Even something as basic as splitting up the really high level (and really low level) players evenly between the two teams would make a huge difference. Forming the teams at a more sensible time (i.e. right before the map loads) would ensure that the balanced teams created in the lobby would actually be reflected in the match. Preventing team switching (unless a team is short 2+ players) would stop players from deliberately stacking teams.

(MTLMortis) #7

What needs to happen is that all accounts need to be ranked. Not just those that play ranked matches or last “X” number of games. It shouldn’t really be hard to do based on quantity of matches played, irregardless of pub or not. A persistent reliable score based on merc, score, k/d, etc

(watsyurdeal) #8

Oh look…this thread again

http://kameshvedula.com/bruh.jpg

Look guys, a matchmaking balance system works like this. It gets stats from your performance, like points earned in total, points earned per life, time spent alive, accuracy, kills, revives, etc.

It gets all this and sorts you based on a ranking from great to shit. It can only do so much, the formula is consistent, YOU are not, your team mates, are not. You can not expect a system to do all the work.

And on top of that, you guys need to check your definition of a stomp. A stomp is a game that’s so short you don’t even time to to finish your beer. A good game is when it comes down to the last 2 minutes of a given game before someone finally wins.

A lot of my games play out like that, so whether you like it or not, the system is doing it’s a job. Want better games? Play better, not just in terms of DM, but play better as a team to things done.

Ffs

(Amerika) #9

It also doesn’t help that I am about 99% certain that they try to match pub teams up as overall Pub ELO average vs. overall Pub ELO average. They are more focused in getting the numbers to reflect each other as opposed to making sure that good players, medium players and new/weak players are balanced among the teams. So a team with one really good player is going to be saddled with the weakest of players while the other team ends up with a bunch of competent if not great players.

So even if a team with a really good player can carry their guys to a win somehow, the weaker players simply get smashed over and over by the other team.

SD really needs to re-evaluate how they match teams up in public games. It can never be perfect due to the drop-in/drop-out nature but at least the start of a match with both teams full/nearly full can be on a somewhat equal footing.

(Black) #10

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;150105”]Oh look…this thread again

http://kameshvedula.com/bruh.jpg

Look guys, a matchmaking balance system works like this. It gets stats from your performance, like points earned in total, points earned per life, time spent alive, accuracy, kills, revives, etc.

It gets all this and sorts you based on a ranking from great to shit. It can only do so much, the formula is consistent, YOU are not, your team mates, are not. You can not expect a system to do all the work.

And on top of that, you guys need to check your definition of a stomp. A stomp is a game that’s so short you don’t even time to to finish your beer. A good game is when it comes down to the last 2 minutes of a given game before someone finally wins.

A lot of my games play out like that, so whether you like it or not, the system is doing it’s a job. Want better games? Play better, not just in terms of DM, but play better as a team to things done.

Ffs[/quote]

Now let’s be honest with ourselves…
There have been times when you get into a full lobby at the map voting screen where the balance system fails so horribly the game doesn’t even last five minutes.

There has also been numerous times in which players vote on a team shuffle and the teams are WORSE.

If the formula is consistent like you claim it needs some improvement.

(onLooSe) #11

[quote=“Amerika;150129”]It also doesn’t help that I am about 99% certain that they try to match pub teams up as overall Pub ELO average vs. overall Pub ELO average. They are more focused in getting the numbers to reflect each other as opposed to making sure that good players, medium players and new/weak players are balanced among the teams. So a team with one really good player is going to be saddled with the weakest of players while the other team ends up with a bunch of competent if not great players.

So even if a team with a really good player can carry their guys to a win somehow, the weaker players simply get smashed over and over by the other team.

SD really needs to re-evaluate how they match teams up in public games. It can never be perfect due to the drop-in/drop-out nature but at least the start of a match with both teams full/nearly full can be on a somewhat equal footing.[/quote]

Exactly this! A LOT! I cry everytime :smiley: … well around 80% of the games I start with the autoshuffle in the lobby.

It doesn’t matter if it’s min level 10 or not. All the time I pray for at least one or two capable players in my team, but nooo… let’s just stack them on the enemy team. Yet another 80% of those games my teammates are unwilling to do anything!

I will try to sum up what happens every game from my perspective. We start the match I look at our team mercs of choice… with disappointment of course. Sometimes I smile when I see a medic and try to go assault for firepower. Well, it’s not long before I have to switch so I can heal myself - all my requests for health go in vain, so back to being a medic. I try to explain to my team where to go and how to defend/push… nope, it’s not long after I run out of ammo and have to go get some or kill myself. Go figure - we get pushed back and lost the position but I’m calm because even if I stayed there, the enemy would have ganged up on me or breach from other side, so no worries. You can imagine this crumbles pretty fast and I request someone from the three proxies to switch to some fire power and meat shield. By now i wasted my medpacks for mercs that die instantly. This is where they decide phantom and vassili are such kind of mercs. I get ganged 1v2/3 constantly and it’s already over.

At that point my morale is pretty much dead on the ground beyond recovery and that’s where the flaming starts: “level 50 can’t carry us vs competent players playing as a team”. I keep my cool… play the rest of the game.

I don’t even want to describe the games when we are Jackals… It’s pretty hard to explain to the new players how to secure objectives and how to flank, but not just rush head first into the woodchopper as proxies. All of this while trying to help them and push the enemy team and focusing on the concept that I have to trade my life at least for 2 or 3 enemy players (playing as a medic most of the times).

It’s funny when we manage to steal a win in such scenario - I complement my guys always when they try and listen to me (instead of telling me to shut up while they die one by one) and this is when the enemy team decides to point out how bad I am :stuck_out_tongue: Good times.

When I draw the line… I cry everytime :smiley: Only once in a month or less I see something like: “thanks man! You tried and I learned something”. It’s good to see this, but don’t get me wrong - I always balance it when once a month I reach my limits and lash out swearing left and right followed by rage quit for the day.

My most balanced pub games were the ones that had already started or I stack up with a friend but they are pretty few. Mainly goes either I join game insanely bad and almost over when I can’t do jack… or I break the balance and my team pushes through for few minutes.

(ostmustis) #12

when ppl attack and dont take the first obj in less than 4 mins is unbalanced.
when they defend and dont hold the first obj for 5 mins its also unbalanced. G_G

(NexDroid) #13

Wait, what? This wasnt balanced? I did 3 shuffle votes and guess what, it failed 3 times… If they cant implent score auto balance, what about at least make teams with same number of players…

(watsyurdeal) #14

[quote=“Black;150130”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;150105”]Oh look…this thread again

http://kameshvedula.com/bruh.jpg

Look guys, a matchmaking balance system works like this. It gets stats from your performance, like points earned in total, points earned per life, time spent alive, accuracy, kills, revives, etc.

It gets all this and sorts you based on a ranking from great to shit. It can only do so much, the formula is consistent, YOU are not, your team mates, are not. You can not expect a system to do all the work.

And on top of that, you guys need to check your definition of a stomp. A stomp is a game that’s so short you don’t even time to to finish your beer. A good game is when it comes down to the last 2 minutes of a given game before someone finally wins.

A lot of my games play out like that, so whether you like it or not, the system is doing it’s a job. Want better games? Play better, not just in terms of DM, but play better as a team to things done.

Ffs[/quote]

Now let’s be honest with ourselves…
There have been times when you get into a full lobby at the map voting screen where the balance system fails so horribly the game doesn’t even last five minutes.

There has also been numerous times in which players vote on a team shuffle and the teams are WORSE.

If the formula is consistent like you claim it needs some improvement.[/quote]

Honestly, often times the only thing that happens is the team I am on gets rolled till the last minute of an objective, then suddenly everyone gets their shit together.

So, I am being honest, because match making can’t fix stupid people being stupid.

(HoopleDoople) #15

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;150105”]Oh look…this thread again

http://kameshvedula.com/bruh.jpg

Look guys, a matchmaking balance system works like this. It gets stats from your performance, like points earned in total, points earned per life, time spent alive, accuracy, kills, revives, etc.

It gets all this and sorts you based on a ranking from great to shit. It can only do so much, the formula is consistent, YOU are not, your team mates, are not. You can not expect a system to do all the work.

And on top of that, you guys need to check your definition of a stomp. A stomp is a game that’s so short you don’t even time to to finish your beer. A good game is when it comes down to the last 2 minutes of a given game before someone finally wins.

A lot of my games play out like that, so whether you like it or not, the system is doing it’s a job. Want better games? Play better, not just in terms of DM, but play better as a team to things done.

Ffs[/quote]

It sounds like these threads are quite common. That shouldn’t be a surprise because match balance is poor and this problem should have been addressed long ago.

Now regarding stomps they are defined by how superior one team is, not the length of the match. I would love if every stomp ended quickly, but this can only really happen in objective mode when the superior team is on offense.

I also vehemently disagree with your assertion that the onus is on players to play better in order to have quality matches. The overwhelming majority of players in any game or going to be really bad at it, and that counts double in F2P games. Like it or not a game must account for these players to be successful. I’d also like to point out that any player skilled enough to carry otherwise massively inferior teams is still going to experience plenty of awful matches - they’ll just be on winning end of stomps, which is also very little fun.

At the end of the day we can’t bury our head in the sand and say that pub play is pub play so nothing can be done. Auto-balance, elimination of team stacking mid-match, and auto-detection of stomps could make a vast difference without requiring any sort of skill rating. To get a little more fancy, using level as a simple proxy for skill might make for a big improvement. There’s no guarantee that the higher level player is always more skilled, but if one team has all 3 level 50+ players in the match and the other team has all 3 sub-level 10 players in the match… the outcome is a foregone conclusion.

(watsyurdeal) #16

Yea but see the problem is no kind of matchmaking is going to fix bad players being bad. Often they’re just uneducated about how the game is meant to be played, and so it’s up the devs to provide a proper tutorial, and up to the community to be willing to make vids for the more in depth crazy stuff.

If you guys have a better algorithm for better matchmaking, then please, by all means, but otherwise, this is a situation that can’t be fixed without essentially getting rid of all pubs and just having Ranked.

(RazielWarmonic) #17

Yes.
There are.

(MTLMortis) #18

They may want to look at: https://forum.myrcon.com/showthread.php?6012-MULTIbalancer-1-1-6-0-30-MAR-2015-BFHL

Which did a dandy job on our BF4 servers

(RedBeard) #19

[quote=“RazielWarmonic;150356”]Yes.
There are.[/quote]

An update like the more recent fine tuning updates or something that will actually help?

(LifeupOmega) #20

@onLooSe described pubs perfectly. Nothing kills the enjoyment of this game more than playing this game. :'D