Anyone bugged by the trend towards more XP and less gameplay

[Pamper]

The worst drawback of XP system of ET does reveal itself, when a player question me “why don’t you delay railgun firing so that I can earn more XP”. That makes me sick (so I kick that dickhead out of my server immediately). As a RtCW player played for almost 2 years, I just barely cannot tolerate those XP-maniacs who focus on their damned rank gaining but not mission accomplishment.

Ah, but delaying to get more XP can actually HELP mission accomplishment.

Suppose railgun is the first map. Axis storms through, and is ready to fire gun in 5 minutes. At that point, almost no effort from the Allies can stop them. They can virtually play around at will, and go to fire it when 7-10 minutes are left, without risking the victory at all. If they spend this time collecting XP, then they’ll be in a better position to go on the defensive on fueldump, radar, or whatever is next in the campaign.

Remember that higher XP favors defense, and defending fieldops and panzers get the best benefit of all. Spending those 10 minutes to level up the artillery strikes gives you power in the rest of the games.

[Englander]

Pamper youve just proved ur a XP whore

If your playing this game properly ur only concern is to use team work & complete the mission.

When u can do the obj u do it,only whores say delay so im more powerful,that attitude makes me sick.

[Kendle]

Ah, but delaying to get more XP can actually HELP mission accomplishment.

Sorry, but that’s the common mis-conception usually sprouted by the XP-whore.

Both teams have equal opportunity to XP whore, so if you think delaying going for the objective to gain XP is going to help you, you’re very much mistaken. By delaying it you’re giving the other team opportunity to gain XP as well.

It isn’t XP that favours defense, it’s the maps. They’re all biased towards defense, with Fueldump being the worst (and the last in the standard European Campaign).

As far as the European Campaign is concerned:-

Radar is pretty balanced for both teams. I’ve played games where Allies steal both Radar parts in under 5 minutes, and I’ve also played games where Axis never even lose the bunker, let alone either Radar part.

Railgun, Allies (the defenders) can easily win by capturing and holding the Depot (assuming the 1st Tug hasn’t got there or hasn’t left with the ammo). Axis usually only win if they all go for the Tug and the Allies team is useless (i.e. too many XP-whoring Engy’s off building the Command Post, or XP-whoring Covert-Ops stealing uniforms).

Axis can then easily win FuelDump cos it’s so horrendously biased in their favour. The defending team sure as hell doesn’t need to build XP to win the European Campaign.

@Iceman, you have a point about RTCW. It used to be a relatively “point-whore” free game (apart from in it’s earliest days) until OSP introduced player stats, then suddenly all these l337 wannabe Clan players started doing /kill rather than lose a gunfight to preserve their K/D ratio. Fortunately I’ve yet to see any real evidence of this in ET, but I’m sure it will come.

[Vetinari]

not an XP thing, but “I’m the greatest”: I got team killed on radar while carrying the east radar parts to the command post. the guy who killed me took the parts and after winning he said: “guess who had both parts”

[Kendle]

In RTCW you get points (lots of them) for completing the objective and in the early days TK’ing for the objective was a problem. In ET you don’t get points for this, which is both a good and a bad thing.

It’s good because it would only give the XP-whores more opportunity to abuse the game. You’d have Allied Engy’s defusing each others dynamite on Fueldump / Battery / Oasis in order to plant their own, for instance. But it’s also a bad thing because there’s no incentive now (other than personal motivation) to complete the objective, resulting in too many people playing for their XP rather than the mission.

[sniser2]

You’d have Allied Engy’s defusing each others dynamite on Fueldump / Battery / Oasis in order to plant their own, for instance. But it’s also a bad thing because there’s no incentive now (other than personal motivation) to complete the objective, resulting in too many people playing for their XP rather than the mission.

I agree, but in RTCW the problem with engis defusing team TNT wasn’t nearly as bad as the xp whoring is now.

[Loffy]

I did a wall jump on Oasis. SOme when Berserk and shouted “we never got time to get xp!”.
I laugh.
Then I figured “Hm, it means less time to play and enjoy this nice map - that is true”.
Nowadays, when I do the wall jump, I plant some mines around the tunnels, and I tend to “hang around” more in the gun area, before I plant. Thus extending the gameplay abit.
Kind of mad thoughts I know.
But Im sure I am not the mad:iest person playing ET.
// Loffy

It’s Friday!

[Pamper]

Both teams have equal opportunity to XP whore, so if you think delaying going for the objective to gain XP is going to help you, you’re very much mistaken. By delaying it you’re giving the other team opportunity to gain XP as well.

It isn’t XP that favours defense, it’s the maps. They’re all biased towards defense, with Fueldump being the worst (and the last in the standard European Campaign).

No, Battery is more biased than fueldump ever will be.

But XP is still biased towards defense. Fueldump played with 0Xp on both sides is much more fair than fueldump with all players level 4: the 3x super-arty will be unstoppable. Radar played with 0XP on both sides will be a pushover for offense, but with high XP to enable stronger arty, the defense has a chance.

If you try making a list of each skill bonus, and whether it’s more useful to offense or defense, you’ll see that most all of them are better for defense.

Radar is pretty balanced for both teams.

If you think that, you must play with 32+ players total. More players favors defense, and that’s the only way radar can become close to balanced. Railgun also is biased towards offense. Goldrush and battery both favor defense, unless the teams are truely small (less than 12 total).

l337 wannabe Clan players started doing /kill rather than lose a gunfight to preserve their K/D ratio. Fortunately I’ve yet to see any real evidence of this in ET, but I’m sure it will come.

I’ve already seen ET clan players /kill to avoid being shot down (clan [fear]). If they get taken by surprise, and lose 50% of health to SMG fire before starting to retaliate, they’ll just drop dead.

[Kendle]

I play on a Stopwatch 8v8 or Campaign 10v10 server, and find Radar very balanced (in fact it’s my fav map).

My experience of Battery and Fueldump is that Battery sometimes the Allies win, whereas Fueldump they hardly ever do. I know both are hard for Allies, but they win Battery more often than Fueldump hence why I believe Fueldump to be the most biased.

Railgun, whoever controls the Depot should win, which should be Allies as Axis need to split their offense to control the Depot and get the Tug there. Once Allies control the Depot it’s a hop and skip over the hill to camp the Axis in their spawn.

Radar, too often Axis leave the side door undefended. Assuming they don’t, Allies have a tough time. Axis spawn right on top of both objectives (compared to Allies) so shouldn’t have a problem holding for the full time, but with Allies having 2 ways in, whichever team is most co-ordinated usually wins.

Goldrush / Oasis, close call either way. I see Allies win Oasis more than Goldrush, but that’s probably because a lone Allied Engy can win it on his own against a sloppy Axis defense. Goldrush takes teamwork, which is often lacking on publics, and it provides the most “disctractions” for XP-whoring Engys.

The bottom line though is, play them all with no XP and they are as balanced as they are with XP. The Stopwatch 8v8 server I refer to is the one in my sig with ETPro and XP disabled. I’ve played pretty much equal time on both lately and the balance is the same. It’s the maps that determine balance, not XP.

You only need XP to compete because the other team have it as well. Take it away and the balance remains. Play on a server with XP disabled for a couple of weeks then come back and tell me different.

[Pamper]

You only need XP to compete because the other team have it as well.

Are you really claiming that all XP skills are equally useful on both offense and defense? They’re not. Some skills are better for one thing or the other.

Look, Signals 2-4 are all better for defense than offense. They just are, I hardly think I need to explain why. (One thing to remember is that any skill which reduces power usage is more valuable if you have a longer respawn time, like defenders do)

Engineer 2-4 and Battlesense 4 are more useful for offense. And coincidentally, those are the 2 kinds of XP that an Allied team won’t be able to collect if Axis drags out the last stage of railgun. (There’s virtually nothing to build/explode, and they won’t be living 30+ seconds after fighting). Axis can build Signals (defense) and Medic (neutral), while Allied aren’t collecting any specific skills that’ll help them win later.

[Kendle]

I agree with all you say, but these skills don’t really make a difference if both teams are somewhat organised. Where XP really makes a difference is it distracts players from the objectives (Engys building stuff that doesn’t need to be built just to get the XP, Cov-Ops stealing uniforms rather than infiltrating / providing smoke cover, etc.).

I repeat the last line of my previous post. I’ve played a fair bit without XP, and it doesn’t add / detract from the inherent balance / imbalance of the maps, they’re just the same. Those that are easy to defend with LVL3 this, LVL4 that, are just as easy to defend with LVL0 everything (assuming the opposition are LVL0 everything as well).

Pamper, no offence, but I really think you need to play on some tougher servers.

[Pamper]

The bottom line though is, play them all with no XP and they are as balanced as they are with XP.

No… You still haven’t touched my claim that FieldOp’s support fire is more useful for defense than offense (maybe because it’s obviously true?). Maps where Fieldops can make a big difference (fueldump, battery, and somewhat goldrush) are a LOT harder to attack if all players are level3 than if they’re level 0. The increased XP power of the attacking team does nothing to help them walk through 45 seconds of pure artillery.

The Stopwatch 8v8 server I refer to is the one in my sig with ETPro and XP disabled. I’ve played pretty much equal time on both lately and the balance is the same. It’s the maps that determine balance, not XP.

You CANNOT look at results from a Stopwatch server and make any judgements about the balance of a map. The whole idea of stopwatch mode is to transform an offense-biased map into a fair playing experience.

If you think that Axis often win Radar, that’s because half of the times you see them play it’s the 2nd stage of stopwatch, when they only have to hold out for one second longer than the last round took. (Frequently just 5-7 minutes) Radar is the best map for stopwatch because its the one where you’re most certain that the Allies can complete the objectives, meaning the game is a race to get the best time, not a question of whether or not the goal is reached.

On the other hand, if a map has even a slight bias towards defense, then it’ll appear magnified towards a stopwatch player (because you get to see one team defend fueldump for 30 minutes, and then see the other team defend it for another 30). Stopwatch mode makes offensively-biased maps (railgun, radar) appear fairer than they are, while leaving defensive-ones more accurately presented.

Pamper, no offence, but I really think you need to play on some tougher servers.

Same to you. If you regularly see Allies win battery or Axis win radar, the only explanation can be that their opponents were stupid or n00bish.

(Most obviously, one dumb Axis player can really destroy his own team’s defense of battery)

[Depth_Charge]

only reason i xpwhore is to get all the cool skills and stuff but i only do that on fops/medic becuz with people just tapping out u cant get much med xp but i hate nOObie medics that pass med packs otu at spawn when u spawn with full health unless u have the higher hp bar. if i do want to whore the xp for those classes i just get a clan member to kill and kill himself untill i get lev 4 and do the same for him (takes 3 min) but i can kill anyone with lev 4 if i get with him one on one

[Kendle]

[quote=Kendle]The bottom line though is, play them all with no XP and they are as balanced as they are with XP.

No… You still haven’t touched my claim that FieldOp’s support fire is more useful for defense than offense (maybe because it’s obviously true?).
[/quote]
I thought I agreed with you in my previous post, but just so we’re clear, you’re right, Field-Ops support fire is more useful for defense than offense.

Maps where Fieldops can make a big difference (fueldump, battery, and somewhat goldrush) are a LOT harder to attack if all players are level3 than if they’re level 0. The increased XP power of the attacking team does nothing to help them walk through 45 seconds of pure artillery.

Whenever I play Allies on Fueldump I don’t usually have a problem getting the Tank over the Bridge. It may take several pushes, and it helps if you have a fair number of Engys and Meds, but it gets done. Once the Tank is over the bridge the Axis Field-Ops are effectively neutralised. Also, it doesn’t matter if or when Allies get the Tank over the Bridge because the Fuel Depot itself is easily defendable. Axis don’t need LVL3 Field-Ops to win Fueldump, they can win it just as easily without. Not because LVL3 Field-Ops aren’t a powerful defending Class, but because that’s the way the map is.

[quote=Kendle]The Stopwatch 8v8 server I refer to is the one in my sig with ETPro and XP disabled. I’ve played pretty much equal time on both lately and the balance is the same. It’s the maps that determine balance, not XP.

You CANNOT look at results from a Stopwatch server and make any judgements about the balance of a map. The whole idea of stopwatch mode is to transform an offense-biased map into a fair playing experience.

If you think that Axis often win Radar, that’s because half of the times you see them play it’s the 2nd stage of stopwatch…
[/quote]
Sorry, I didn’t make myself clear earlier. The fact that the 8v8 is Stopwatch is purely coincidental. My point is that with XP or without XP the maps are equally balanced / imbalanced. When I say Radar is winable by Axis I mean in Campaign mode as well as the 1st round of Stopwatch. I played for 5 hours straight last night (on 3-map Campaign servers) and I can’t remember Axis losing Radar even once, and that was on good servers with good players.

[quote=Kendle]Pamper, no offence, but I really think you need to play on some tougher servers.

Same to you. If you regularly see Allies win battery or Axis win radar, the only explanation can be that their opponents were stupid or n00bish.
[/quote]
Maybe, I can only call it as I see it. I’ve played with some really stupid players, and some really, really good players, and I see Allies win Battery and I see Axis win Radar. I rarely, if ever, see Allies win Fueldump.

The crux of your argument as I see it (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that Axis need to whore XP during the earlier stages of the European Campaign in order to win FuelDump. Is this correct? Cos if so, with the greatest respect Pamper, honestly, that’s crap. I’m sorry, but FuelDump is so biased towards Axis that they’d have to be stupid beyond belief to lose it. They might need XP to spawn-rape the Allies, but they don’t need it to win it, the map does it all for them.

[Demo]

Read my lips: STOPWATCH 6vs6, 7vs7 or 8vs8!

Problem solved carry on…

[Pamper]

I played for 5 hours straight last night (on 3-map Campaign servers) and I can’t remember Axis losing Radar even once, and that was on good servers with good players.

I wish there was an easy way to collect objective statistics on which side wins each map. It’s a real shame that the TXT files in etmain/stats don’t tell you who won the map, or this whole argument would be over.

Note that the big difference between fueldump and battery is that one bad Axis can lose battery for his team, but one bad Ally can lose fueldump.

To win battery, 100% of the Axis must know not to screw around at the rear door at the wrong time, or the match is lost. To win fueldump, 100% of Allies must know to go into the fortress. Unlike battery, where 1-3 Allies can make a successful entry as long as Axis is distracted shooting peeps on the beach, fueldump is the one where one or two Ally stragglers (or snipers) can turn it into a frustrating loss for the rest of the team.

Maybe, I can only call it as I see it. I’ve played with some really stupid players, and some really, really good players, and I see Allies win Battery and I see Axis win Radar. I rarely, if ever, see Allies win Fueldump.

I’ve only seen Axis win radar once in the past 50 days. Maybe that’s because I tend to play Allies, and I tend to be an awesome parts-runner.

The crux of your argument as I see it (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that Axis need to whore XP during the earlier stages of the European Campaign in order to win FuelDump. Is this correct?

No. But if they DO XP-whore, then they will get more and more useful XP than the other team.

In extended play on railgun, the entire Allied team will have to be congregating at the gun controls to hold Axis back from it. Axis will quickly capture depot yard, and no Allies can really afford to head over there because they must try to defend the gun. So with allies all stuck trying to guard that one place, they’ll be perfect victims for arty, airstrike, panzer, sniping, and anything else you want to shoot at them. The Axis are in no rush, so they can freely range all over the map and be relatively safe.

In a situation like that, few Allies will be able to survive 30 sec after entering combat (unless they totally run away from the railgun, which they can’t do). And there’s no way to build engineer XP (the only fast way to get engineer is to keep a tank moving).

Allies won’t be earning BS4 or Eng2-4, which are the skills more biased towards offense. But Axis will be earning Sig2-4, which are biased towards defense. Therefore the more XP-collection that happens on railgun, the better off Axis will be. Their XP gain will NOT be counter-balanced by the gain of the other team.

No, Axis don’t really need this XP to win, they can win regardless. But if they choose to delay victory and collect points, it’ll help more than it hurts.

[NOP]

XP whoring is a big problem, and it’s getting worse.
The most infuriating examples for me are

1. Field op sitting behind mortar. Absolutely hate it, it’s basically using two people to fire one lousy gun.
   2)engis on goldrush keep repairing the truck instead of trying to get in and steal the gold.
   3)engis defuse eachother’s dynamite to get the XP.
   That being said I don’t really like it when matches end within 3 min of start. For example I hate it when a covop and engi sneak in and blow the fueldump early in the game. It has nothing to do with the XP, it’s just that I really like Fueldump and I like to play the whole map(both sections I mean).

P.S. Could you people keep your posts a little shorter. If I wanted to read a book I’d get one on tape.

[Kendle]

The crux of your argument as I see it (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that Axis need to whore XP during the earlier stages of the European Campaign in order to win FuelDump. Is this correct?

No. But if they DO XP-whore, then they will get more and more useful XP than the other team.

OK, that’s a departure from your original argument, so thanks for that.

In extended play on railgun, the entire Allied team will have to be congregating at the gun controls to hold Axis back from it. Axis will quickly capture depot yard, and no Allies can really afford to head over there because they must try to defend the gun. So with allies all stuck trying to guard that one place, they’ll be perfect victims for arty, airstrike, panzer, sniping, and anything else you want to shoot at them. The Axis are in no rush, so they can freely range all over the map and be relatively safe.

In all the time I’ve played this game I’ve NEVER seen that happen. Once Axis get the ammo onto the 2nd Tug it’s game over. Allies win Railgun by controlling the Depot before Axis take the ammo.

We obviously play on very different types of server, with very different types of player. I don’t think this debate can be “won” by either of us.

I just think it’s a sad state of affairs when people start thinking they need XP to win. It was bad enough when people mistakenly believed high XP meant you were a good player and / or had made a good contribution to your team. At worst XP is a harmful distraction, at best it’s a pleasant bonus for the individual, but to claim you need it? Well, that’s just sad. Try skill and strats instead, I think you’ll ultimately find it a more rewarding experience.

[Pamper]

[quote=“Kendle”]

The crux of your argument as I see it (please correct me if I’m wrong) is that Axis need to whore XP during the earlier stages of the European Campaign in order to win FuelDump. Is this correct?

No. But if they DO XP-whore, then they will get more and more useful XP than the other team.

OK, that’s a departure from your original argument, so thanks for that.[/quote]
No it isn’t. If you think so, then you didn’t read my statement orginally, so there’s no reason to think you’ll read it now. But I’ll quote it for you, just in case:

They can virtually play around at will, and go to fire it when 7-10 minutes are left, without risking the victory at all. If they spend this time collecting XP, then they’ll be in a better position to go on the defensive on fueldump, radar, or whatever is next in the campaign.

In all the time I’ve played this game I’ve NEVER seen that happen. Once Axis get the ammo onto the 2nd Tug it’s game over. Allies win Railgun by controlling the Depot before Axis take the ammo.

That doesn’t make any sense. Once again, you obviously didn’t READ what I said. Should I explain it to you, or just give up on it? I think I’ll give up.

PS. I’ve seen Allies win railgun with the ammo loaded. Once. I joined with 18 minutes left, the ammo was already back at Axis spawn. But apparently every other person on the server sucked, so I was able to hold them off. (It turns out the victory-viewpoint is looking down on the gun controls from the rear.)

but to claim you need it?
I never claimed that. Once again, reading-comprehension fails you.

[Cue]

One thing that I’ve noticed is that ill see alot of players who think the only way of looking like a good player is to have high xp, I’ll see them just sit there and go for xp, not even caring whats going on in the game, like ill see a field op just sit right out of the spawn thowing down ammo so when the team spawns they pick it up and he gets xp, it happens all the time. :bump: