Ammo boxes need to be closer to the defenders

(affableTricycle) #1

On several maps, the ammo boxes are very inconvenient for the defenders to get to, but easy for the attackers to get to. This is all well and good in an ideal world, where you’ll always have an ammo merc, but in pubs you can’t guarantee that you have every role available on your team.

One example of this is the last stage of Bridge. The ammo box is on the ground floor of the MG building. This is about equal distance from either team’s spawn, but the attackers can easily snipe anyone walking into that building from just outside their spawn.

The worst offender is Underground. The box in the first objective is right near the north door, which is a major area for the attackers, often set up with turrets and health stations. The last objective’s box may as well be IN the attacker spawn because it’s stupidly inaccessible.

This is a major map design problem. If I want to heal but have no medics, I RETREAT to allow my HP to naturally regenerate. This in turn causes the other team to push forwards. This is why medics are vital to gaining and holding ground. So why is it the opposite with ammo? Why do I have to rush into the other team to get ammo, especially when I don’t have any bullets left to kill them with?

Ammo boxes on all maps should be way back in each team’s spawn. This way you have to keep running back to get ammo, letting your pressure off the enemy and making fire support mercs just as important for pushing as medics.

(XavienX) #2

I just think there should be more ammo crates spread out.

(KattiValk) #3

The ammo boxes are supposed to be hard to access in certain areas. The devs can’t patch pub stupidity. I know the feeling (Fragger burns through those 100 rounds real fast…), but it’s just something DB can’t fix.

(affableTricycle) #4

Yes, it’s just pub stupidity. Competitive players have no problem spawntrapping the attackers on the last stage of Underground with no bullets left.

(Vx89) #5

Actually it is just Pub stupidity. My friends and I when we do Competitive we discuss our loadouts and whose going to be doing what, but two of us keep a merc in our loadout that gives ammo. Why? Smart planning…

I can’t tell you how many Pub Bridge maps I’ve been defending the datacores and we lose because the enemy team is attacking hard and then 2-3 players are asking for ammo when nobody is playing Skyhammer. Funny thing is you check the scoreboard and 3-4 players have a Skyhammer they just aren’t playing them. Players lacking forethought and intelligence is the problem…

Its very simple. If you someone like me who goes into the server browser and looks for 7v7 or 8v8 matches they’re are two things you should expect to see in your teams comp. Minimum two medics, 1-2 mercs that give ammo, at least one Fragger. Then fill with w/e.

(quickMicrowave) #6

The game should be designed that classes are necessary, ie; there is a need to play an LT class that gives out ammo.

What you are describing only really affects casual public playing, not organized 5 on 5 games where people are playing with their heads on straight.

There used to be plenty more and thus nobody played ammo based classes because nobody ever ran out of ammo.

It boils down to this, its a team based game - several players you run into on pub servers are simply padding ratios and just having fun, several other players are heavily focused on the objectives and getting the job done. With a mix of both, you should be successful and never have the need for an ammo bin.

OR - play a position that is near an ammo bin. If you are having problems running out of ammo, do something about it.

(VirtualRaptor) #7

I think the ammo boxes are placed quite well. It motivates people to pick an ammo-distributing class. On top of that, most people seem to equip Skyhammer any way.

(Gi.Am) #8

Uhm the Ammoboxes are setup for the attackers.
Several ammoboxes used to be closer to the defenders.
But that ensured that they stayed in good defending position (trainyard for example, the left ammobox on the groundfloor used to be on the upper level). They are ment to benefit the attackers more (they can refill directly in/behind the contested area) so they are closer to them, so that they can keep the pressure up.
While a defender has to overextend to get ammunition, with a high chance of getting killed doing so, or count on a fellow support guy giving him ammuntion.

(ProfPlump) #9

Yes, it’s just pub stupidity. Competitive players have no problem spawntrapping the attackers on the last stage of Underground with no bullets left.[/quote]

Um, competitive teams will always have a Skyhammer (or possibly an Arty/Kira) in the group - they almost never run out of ammo.

(ProfPlump) #10

Yes, let’s put ammo crates everywhere and make the Skyhammer/Arty/Kira classes even less useful.
While we’re at it, let’s put health crates everywhere too so that the medic classes are useless too.

(affableTricycle) #11

Yes, it’s just pub stupidity. Competitive players have no problem spawntrapping the attackers on the last stage of Underground with no bullets left.[/quote]

Um, competitive teams will always have a Skyhammer (or possibly an Arty/Kira) in the group - they almost never run out of ammo.[/quote]

I like that you have no ability to DETECT sarcasm but proceed to use it in the comment below. My point was that he was arguing that it was just pub stupidity that people were unable to reach the ammo boxes, when in fact even newb has trouble shooting things when he doesn’t have any bullets.

The problem with having mercs that are literally necessary to win - or to even play for more than a minute without hitting K - is that you’re then relying on other people just to play the fucking game. An obj specialist or a medic isn’t a necessity, it’s just very useful. On maps like Underground you are pretty much required to either play a fire support or have a fire support who ever presses E on your team.

I’d also like to state that having ammo boxes that are easy to reach does NOT make fire support mercs useless. Far from it. In order to get ammo from a box, in my ideal world, you’d have to go really far back - all the way back to the spawn. On UG’s last stage, this would mean going up the escalators or possibly around the barriers. Then for the time it takes to fill up on ammo you could waste upwards of 30 seconds, leaving the rest of your team vulnerable. Stating that this system would make ammo mercs useless is like stating that passive health regen makes healing from medics useless.

(extraordinaryEmperor) #12

If we’re designing the game around competitive play, there shouldn’t be any ammo caches because you can rely on your team to give you ammo.

Also, just because an ammo cache exists doesn’t mean it’s better than an ammo guy. An ammo box instantly gives you full reserve ammo, while the ammo box gives you half a mag every so often and caps at an extra half a clip. Wasting time sitting on an ammo box to give you ammo is a terrible way to be competitive.

If the game forces you to play a role every game because playing your favourite role is nigh impossible for ammo reasons, then it just becomes unfun.

(Dawnlazy) #13

There should be at least 1 more ammo cache during the first objective in Terminal though. Why is the only one so isolated in that remote corner?

(XavienX) #14

The game should be designed that classes are necessary, ie; there is a need to play an LT class that gives out ammo.

What you are describing only really affects casual public playing, not organized 5 on 5 games where people are playing with their heads on straight.

There used to be plenty more and thus nobody played ammo based classes because nobody ever ran out of ammo.

It boils down to this, its a team based game - several players you run into on pub servers are simply padding ratios and just having fun, several other players are heavily focused on the objectives and getting the job done. With a mix of both, you should be successful and never have the need for an ammo bin.

OR - play a position that is near an ammo bin. If you are having problems running out of ammo, do something about it.
[/quote]

I mean, of course not TOO much, but like 2 for each point of objective at least with one more defenders and one towards attackers.

(Szakalot) #15

there used to be ammo packs closer to the defenders - they have often been moved precisely so that defenders have to go out of their way to get ammo.

its either that, /kill, or making sure you have Fop in team

(DMaster2) #16

This is a good point and i always feel the same issue on bridge and especially underground. And this should get addressed imho. Either relocate the ammo crate so it’s more neutral and you don’t have to suicide yourself for a bunch of ammo or (like some people like to say) cut them out completly to make fire support be the only ammo dealers. Which would be stupid since they never seem to pass out ammo. But if you keep ammo crates, makes them available for both attacking and defending, not only one side.

(DMaster2) #17

[quote=“ProfPlump;70228”]Yes, let’s put ammo crates everywhere and make the Skyhammer/Arty/Kira classes even less useful.
While we’re at it, let’s put health crates everywhere too so that the medic classes are useless too.[/quote]
If people played fire support competently there wouldn’t be a need for them in the first place. Since they can’t and people have to kill themselves to try and get some it’s only natural that you replace them so they are in a neutral ground or you add one much more convenient to the defenders.

(DMaster2) #18

[quote=“Gi.Am;67088”]Uhm the Ammoboxes are setup for the attackers.
Several ammoboxes used to be closer to the defenders.
But that ensured that they stayed in good defending position (trainyard for example, the left ammobox on the groundfloor used to be on the upper level). They are ment to benefit the attackers more (they can refill directly in/behind the contested area) so they are closer to them, so that they can keep the pressure up.
While a defender has to overextend to get ammunition, with a high chance of getting killed doing so, or count on a fellow support guy giving him ammuntion.[/quote]
That doesn’t make any sense to me.

(DMaster2) #19

The game should be designed that classes are necessary, ie; there is a need to play an LT class that gives out ammo.

What you are describing only really affects casual public playing, not organized 5 on 5 games where people are playing with their heads on straight.

There used to be plenty more and thus nobody played ammo based classes because nobody ever ran out of ammo.

It boils down to this, its a team based game - several players you run into on pub servers are simply padding ratios and just having fun, several other players are heavily focused on the objectives and getting the job done. With a mix of both, you should be successful and never have the need for an ammo bin.

OR - play a position that is near an ammo bin. If you are having problems running out of ammo, do something about it.
[/quote]
Then remove them completly. If the game want to promote fire support classes make them the only one to give ammo. But when you decide ammo crates have to exist, you make them available equally to both attackers and defenders. Not that one side have it next to spawn and the other side have to go and suicide to try and get some.

(ProfPlump) #20

[quote=“affableTricycle;15785”]On several maps, the ammo boxes are very inconvenient for the defenders to get to, but easy for the attackers to get to. This is all well and good in an ideal world, where you’ll always have an ammo merc, but in pubs you can’t guarantee that you have every role available on your team.

One example of this is the last stage of Bridge. The ammo box is on the ground floor of the MG building. This is about equal distance from either team’s spawn, but the attackers can easily snipe anyone walking into that building from just outside their spawn.

The worst offender is Underground. The box in the first objective is right near the north door, which is a major area for the attackers, often set up with turrets and health stations. The last objective’s box may as well be IN the attacker spawn because it’s stupidly inaccessible.

This is a major map design problem. If I want to heal but have no medics, I RETREAT to allow my HP to naturally regenerate. This in turn causes the other team to push forwards. This is why medics are vital to gaining and holding ground. So why is it the opposite with ammo? Why do I have to rush into the other team to get ammo, especially when I don’t have any bullets left to kill them with?

Ammo boxes on all maps should be way back in each team’s spawn. This way you have to keep running back to get ammo, letting your pressure off the enemy and making fire support mercs just as important for pushing as medics.[/quote]

I don’t think you’ve thought through how in those stages (last stages of Bridge and Underground) that the Fire Support mercs are almost completely unable to make use of their Fire Support abilities - so it makes sense for the ammo boxes to be harder to access in those section because it means that the Fire Support mercs retain their importance by being the main source of ammo for their team. This means that finishing an enemy Fire Support player in these stages can have an incredibly important strategic value - in that it forces your opponents team to switch to their pistols unless they conserve their primary weapon ammo.