The base speed may be slower but combat is very quick so you are almost never running on the ground at base speed. Between, momentum multipliers, momentum retainment, and titan dodging, XT is a snail in comparison.
It’s time to change the mindset of what you think players need. Remove the shackles, remove the prison, and stop being a game design warden.
I prefer faster forward momentum, I prefer having the ability to carry forward momentum, I would rather have that than strafe speed.
[QUOTE=strychzilla;492659]The base speed may be slower but combat is very quick so you are almost never running on the ground at base speed. Between, momentum multipliers, momentum retainment, and titan dodging, XT is a snail in comparison.
It’s time to change the mindset of what you think players need. Remove the shackles, remove the prison, and stop being a game design warden.[/QUOTE]
i tried to play yesterday, but couldnt last more than 20 mins. i was bored to tears. i felt so slow
[QUOTE=strychzilla;492659]The base speed may be slower but combat is very quick so you are almost never running on the ground at base speed. Between, momentum multipliers, momentum retainment, and titan dodging, XT is a snail in comparison.
It’s time to change the mindset of what you think players need. Remove the shackles, remove the prison, and stop being a game design warden.[/QUOTE]
Just to be clear, what I personally think players need is very much inline with Titanfall, Crysis 3 MP and games like Tribes, and the way they approach skilled movement. I think if most of the devs here were asked about solid and skilled movement mechanics in FPS games they’d say the same thing.
I don’t think what players need is what people consider to be ‘skilled’ movement in games like ET and RTCW, because whilst there is scope for skill in those systems, that some people do master, there are also so many more inherent issues with them.
[QUOTE=Anti;492675]Just to be clear, what I personally think players need is very much inline with Titanfall, Crysis 3 MP and games like Tribes, and the way they approach skilled movement. I think if most of the devs here were asked about solid and skilled movement mechanics in FPS games they’d say the same thing.
I don’t think what players need is what people consider to be ‘skilled’ movement in games like ET and RTCW, because whilst there is scope for skill in those systems, that some people do master, there are also so many more inherent issues with them.[/QUOTE]
I’m not a die hard strafe jumping fanatic like some here. I don’t believe it’s needed at all in XT. However, advanced movement in some fashion is. If that involves wall kicks with momentum, dodging, or whatever you choose to do that’s fine but it needs to fit and mesh with the maps. I do agree with the inherent issues with strafe jumping.
For a team that is pro movement you have managed to develop a product that is the exact opposite. I know it’s still being tuned, but it is a problem and it’s nice to see you addressing it (slowly, but still addressing it.)
[QUOTE=strychzilla;492677]I’m not a die hard strafe jumping fanatic like some here. I don’t believe it’s needed at all in XT. However, advanced movement in some fashion is. If that involves wall kicks with momentum, dodging, or whatever you choose to do that’s fine but it needs to fit and mesh with the maps. I do agree with the inherent issues with strafe jumping.
For a team that is pro movement you have managed to develop a product that is the exact opposite. I know it’s still being tuned, but it is a problem and it’s nice to see you addressing it (slowly, but still addressing it.)[/QUOTE]
Yep, think we’re happy to admit that we’ve been a bit too slow on this, we’ve let various other things as well as a focus on feedback based around things like strafe jumping distract us from the value of a movement system with depth. That’s part of the reason we’re now looking to address this with the likes of wall hop and long jump etc.
Thanks for clearing that up Anti, now I know you’re going after games I find extremely tedious and boring to play and away from games I liked quite a bit 
Me and my ilk thought so when we started playing but were confused by the message you were sending out and thus stayed far longer than we should have
I understand why developers are against strafe-jumping style movement. In theory, it is bad design. But to be honest, I just don’t know any movement system that feels as satsifying as strafe jumping in Quake. I can go from Titanfall or Tribes to other games, and feel fine. But if I go from Quake 3 to another game, it is very hard to get used to.
In theory though, I think Titanfall, Tribes: Ascend, and Shootmania do it right.
[QUOTE=tangoliber;492681]I understand why developers are against strafe-jumping style movement. In theory, it is bad design. But to be honest, I just don’t know any movement system that feels as satsifying as strafe jumping in Quake. I can go from Titanfall or Tribes to other games, and feel fine. But if I go from Quake 3 to another game, it is very hard to get used to.
In theory though, I think Titanfall, Tribes: Ascend, and Shootmania do it right.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think there’s a movement system that has the varying degree of skill that the likes of Quake 3 provides, or a movement system that will ever bring the same satisfaction that you mention. They’re all very limited in one way or another and require very little input to make everyone feel special… and when everyone is special, no one is special, which makes me think the entire point of the request has been missed completely.
Bridge to rail isn’t the most difficult jump in Q3 but it’s probably the most popular, most used and most known about jump in the game, it requires 2 jumps to complete but needs some practice. Practising that one single jump based on a simple tutorial on youtube teaches the player about circlejumping, ground acceleration, air acceleration, strafe angles, air switching, the fact that all this together increases pace and distance, and by the fact you get a railgun in 1/10th of the time it takes going the long way also teaches the player that learning this **** gives rewards. Practising that one jump and landing it put me on the path to applying it to my gameplay and it yielded amazing results… more so cos it wasn’t handed to me on a bloody plate! Had it been 2 button presses that anyone could’ve pulled off? Meh, so what, anyone can do it at any time so renders it pointless. Practice made perfect, gave me consistency and the results gave me a reason to practice.
Ok so a wall kick has been added, everyone was pulling every jump off on the server in a couple of tries. Titanfall and Tribes at least require timing and landing aim, hitting the right slopes at the right time and pressing the 2nd jump exactly when needed. Unless a serious iteration of the… actually I paused here, thought about it then thought, what’s the point so i’ll wrap up.
There’s no great varying degree of success, so there’s no varying degree of satisfaction, everyone can do just about everything with everyone reaping the small gains that come with it. I honestly don’t know how to put it across, but just adding a wall kick that has no variation in degree of output vs input does nothing for skill. Bridge to rail was Q3’s in-game tutorial and it was great, the fear that ‘people won’t get it’ and leaving it out just means everyone misses out… you’re deciding for them that they won’t like it and won’t want it.
buncha crappy nonsense rambling from me at the end of the day and I’m not even drunk 
[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;492687]I don’t think there’s a movement system that has the varying degree of skill that the likes of Quake 3 provides, or a movement system that will ever bring the same satisfaction that you mention. They’re all very limited in one way or another and require very little input to make everyone feel special… and when everyone is special, no one is special, which makes me think the entire point of the request has been missed completely.
Bridge to rail isn’t the most difficult jump in Q3 but it’s probably the most popular, most used and most known about jump in the game, it requires 2 jumps to complete but needs some practice. Practising that one single jump based on a simple tutorial on youtube teaches the player about circlejumping, ground acceleration, air acceleration, strafe angles, air switching, the fact that all this together increases pace and distance, and by the fact you get a railgun in 1/10th of the time it takes going the long way also teaches the player that learning this **** gives rewards. Practising that one jump and landing it put me on the path to applying it to my gameplay and it yielded amazing results… more so cos it wasn’t handed to me on a bloody plate! Had it been 2 button presses that anyone could’ve pulled off? Meh, so what, anyone can do it at any time so renders it pointless. Practice made perfect, gave me consistency and the results gave me a reason to practice.
Ok so a wall kick has been added, everyone was pulling every jump off on the server in a couple of tries. Titanfall and Tribes at least require timing and landing aim, hitting the right slopes at the right time and pressing the 2nd jump exactly when needed. Unless a serious iteration of the… actually I paused here, thought about it then thought, what’s the point so i’ll wrap up.
There’s no great varying degree of success, so there’s no varying degree of satisfaction, everyone can do just about everything with everyone reaping the small gains that come with it. I honestly don’t know how to put it across, but just adding a wall kick that has no variation in degree of output vs input does nothing for skill. Bridge to rail was Q3’s in-game tutorial and it was great, the fear that ‘people won’t get it’ and leaving it out just means everyone misses out… you’re deciding for them that they won’t like it and won’t want it.
buncha crappy nonsense rambling from me at the end of the day and I’m not even drunk :/[/QUOTE]
We’ve already stated that wall hop on it’s own isn’t where the movement improvements end, as it is the skill range required is obviously small. Once you are combining it with things like our long jump, crouch jump and a few other things we have in mind that’s when you’re going to start to see a skill range emerge from the system.
Still good to read your latest posts Anti !
However, if we are able to wait the evolution of the game, it’s not the same for a lot of players.
Until your movement system is not ready, you shouldn’t open the alpha/beta. Shootmania made the mistake to open the beta while they had not finished the work on the movement system. A lot of players had a bad opinion on the game and they didn’t given to it a second chance.
I was working on a little test map in my free time and have been playing around with adding in cool routes for our jump systems. I was showing some people and thought some changes meant my jumps weren’t possible any more. There’s one jump I can do about 1 in 10 times and one I couldn’t do at all. Toomic asked to have a go and did it first time. It’s not a lot, but it’s an example of what LDs could do, and I’m not even a proper LD.
humm ! would be nice that Alp/Beta guys try 
how bout a Trials type of mod
I’d like to know the reason for diminishing returns with chained wall jumps when every other popular game that has advanced movement does the complete opposite. RtCW, ET, Q3, Team Fortress, Titanfall, Tribes… they all reward you with speed for your precision, but Xt is hell bent taking things away from the player for doing well, I honestly don’t get it. Worried the maps will get exploited? Well don’t make them exploitable instead of removing the fun and sense of accomplishment.
everyone should be able to do everything. that’s the only way objective mode stays fun.
the entire balance of the game revolves around the assumption that each soldier is fully capable of performing his task, but that one of the armies will emerge victorious. that’s kind of the whole point of the game…
it’s why hacking a radar or disarming a bomb is about holding a key for a seconds instead of computer programming or electrical surgery
that is false. quake’s in-game tutorial is garbage and almost no new players would be able to do that jump (and it’s not even the hardest one)
i’d bet that 95% of players who played for a year can’t even complete that jump more than 5% of the time
you went out of your way to watch youtube tutorials that would scare away any reasonable person. that has nothing to do with the game as 99% of players will experience it
giving good players a way to dominate by huge margins doesn’t really benefit a game like extraction.
it’s fine for games like starcraft 2 where the entire focus is 1v1 e-sport and the matchmaking actually works, but it just makes it impossible to get fair teams in other types of games
if movement/shooting skill becomes so dominant over everything else, then why bother with this game instead of an arena shooter?
[QUOTE=biz;492921]
if movement/shooting skill becomes so dominant over everything else, then why bother with this game instead of an arena shooter?[/QUOTE]
I think your overlooking the part where shooting/movement are indeed given a lot of value, but not in the sense that they dominate the game entirely. After all they only become significant if there is a considerably large deficiency on one team, where as if you have equally matched teams in terms of raw individual performance then it comes down to the teamwork and intelligent strategy. You don’t have to be a master of movement or a master of aim to win a game in extraction, which is where what you’re saying falls apart. If extraction was indeed a dueling game or based on kill count and if you were required to master shooting and movement just to play casually, you’d be correct.
As long as a system like matchmaking is in place, the game will be enjoyable/winnable at any level- though the opportunity to surpass your opponent on an individual scale will be available in multiple categories. They don’t actually force you to learn or perform them well unless your goal is to simply become more proficient at the game. It’s about creating a discernible skill gap and allowing players to individually have something to strive towards- but without being a hard requirement to play. Even in SC2 a player with the best micro/macro can only go so far without real strategy and the game is playable/enjoyable with absolutely no mastery/understanding, which proves that there’s more to it.
The one thing I will agree on is that sometimes people take the shooting/movement/etc too far to the point that there’s no value given to other parts of the game. This is why we have spread values, objs, abilities, etc. There’s a lot of important skills involved in being good at these games, which is why the pure-support or pure-movement or pure-aimer or pure-strategic players will never be satisfied. It’s all about being well rounded to get the best results and balancing the reward of each category based on the relative effort involved up to the point that it doesn’t dictate the entire game experience at all levels.
I also wanted to add that in some cases it has seemed like SD leans more towards “dumbed down” or lack there of mechanics for the sake of more instant accessibility at the loss of any mastery/skill curve. I’ve always thought a system of duality, ie easy to perform/learn maneuvers/techniques and more complicated/difficult techniques would be the best route. The problem to me has always been the view that it needs to be one extreme, where as I personally think that you could make the game both instantly satisfying and playable at a low level, but allow for the option to take things much further without making it an essential part of playing the game casually.
I’ve only seen this exist on non-FPS titles, where as the FPS genre hasn’t seemed to attempt or achieve the same results. A big factor being matchmaking, which takes care of the problem of frustration due to imbalance rather than trying to solve that by dissolving skill. Maybe CS was trying to get there with spraying vs bursting, but even then it doesn’t fulfill that goal. When everyone’s playing the same game and having equally satisfying experiences on all levels- no pro mods, just different methods of play per skill group and greater overall mastery/execution- then you’ve done something right.