Adressing the shotgun issue : Shotgun rework.

(Eox) #1

Hello there.

So I’ve been discussing with @Jaeger about the shotguns following an encounter in game. We both agree on something, and I think most of you thinks the same : shotguns are not fine in their current state. Newbies are getting upset against them and think they are overpowered, while more advanced players just can’t think about packing one due to how crippling they are. I always though that there’s a solution to that issue, and I do think that I finally found it.

First, here’s a list of the multiple shotgun flaws :

  • The lack of range makes them useless in competition where most fights are mid ranged. A shotgun can’t hit reliably past a few meters and their DPS decrease exponentially due to the spread that is, well, too spreaded.
  • Lack of “skill indexing” (it’s probably a bad idea to call it like that, but whatever), because at some point there’s no need to aim for the head as you may miss too much pellets, making headshots worthless.
  • Shotguns can be frustrating to new players, as those complain a lot about their high damage. Shotguns should probably not be able to one shot a light merc that easly.

Two of those issues make shotguns a poor weapon choice in competition. The third issue is more here for convenience. I do not think my solution will solve the fact that some people think the shotguns are OP, but at least it’ll adress a bit of it. The main goal is still to make shotguns a viable choice in competition.

Now let’s talk about the serious business ! Here’s what I am suggesting :

1 : Spread changes.
The spread issue is very probably linked to the current star shaped spread and the high number of pellets, that scatter damage too much around the place. I think it could be wise to switch for a more generic, less “pellety” pattern. let’s reduce the number of pellets to 7 for Ahnuhld and Hollunds, and 10 pellets for the Remburg. Now for the pattern shape : NO MORE PELLETS TO FAR FROM THE CENTER ! All of the pellets are placed around the center pellet, in a circle. This, in my opinion, will lead to a thighter, friendlier spread.

Have a poorly drawn exemple :

http://i.imgur.com/9qshn9N.png
I’ve just noticed that there’s an error in the Remburg’s pattern : 11 pellets are shown instead of 10. Blame my lack of sleep, duh.

2 : Center pellet rule.
I want to make well centered shots as rewarding as possible. This give some skill indexing, and also makes you a bit more potent at long range, this is why I suggest to also make the center pellet hitting twice the damage of other pellets. Exemple : Ahnuhld now fires 7 pellets that deals 7 damage, so the center pellet will now deal 14 damage ! It’s simple, allow you to deal a bit of poke damage at long range, and still make headshots more rewarding no matter what… At least I hope so. If it doesn’t work, let’s just give one less peripheral pellet, and make the center pellet deal three times the damage maybe. Gotta work at some point… Duh.

3 : tweaks to damage values and clip.
This won’t go with some changes to the damage value of course ! Because the pattern is now much less spread around, I don’t think it’s wise to keep the damage values as they are. Also, I always questioned the fact that you can one shot light mercs without getting the head with the Hollunds and the Remburg.

Here’s the value suggestions :
Ahnuhld-12 : 7 pellets spread. 8 damage per pellet, 16 damage center pellet. 64 total damage.
Hollunds 880: 7 pellets spread. 9 damage per pellet, 18 damage center pellet. 72 total damage.
Remburg 7 : 10 pellets spread, 7 damage per pellet, 14 damage center pellet. 77 total damage.

To compensate the loss of firepower, all shotguns will get a clip size buff (+1 clip size to all shotguns should be enough IMO). Also, if needed, raise the RPM a bit.

All shotguns would keep their properties. With the Remburg, you can expect to one shot Fragger with a well placed headshot, while other shotguns won’t be powerful enough. However, they’ll be able to shoot faster. Ahnuhld has also the least spread among shotguns, and the best clip. Nothing changes about that. I tried to be as conservative as possible with the stat changes : Remburg is still the best damage dealer, Ahnuhld would still be the most precise one, suited for mid range. Hollunds is in between.

So, how is it ?

(Seasnakez) #2

Well if i can one shot headshot 120 HP mercs with 1 HS, doesn’t that make the rem and hollunds useless and they just got smaller magazines and slower RPM?

(Eox) #3

The Remburg can one shot Fragger with a well placed headshot (77 * 2 = 159 if I am not mistaken), which makes it still interesting IMO. About the Hollunds, you can’t expect to one shot anything below 120 health, but it should give you more error margin compared to the Ahnuhld due to its greater power. I don’t think that Remburg and Hollunds are outclassed by Ahnuhld.

(VincentRJaeger) #4

As is probably assumed, I stand behind this idea. I think it will make shotguns viable and less frustrating without breaking them, possibly even making them a viable choice in competitive!

(bontsa) #5

Sweet golly thing that you posted this on the round-up thread, let’s necro it up since it seems interesting enough!

I didn’t even know what kind of a pattern shotguns make, start-shape explains so many “how did that do so much damage than the previous, exactly same shot” moments.

We would still hear a lot of whine of “1-shotting” since Aura’s 80hp -77 shot => 3 hp left and a wet flatulence into general direction of said sassy black female will obliterate her. But this is indeededly very nice idea, it gives new guys a little more chance to learn how to prevent getting shred by shotgun with positioning and movement better way than what is currently going on.

E: Seriously, Nexon, more commoner word for the gassy end product of human gastroenteronomical canal is sensored?

(darlingClaymore) #6

Shotguns are doing what they are meant to, explode anything in close range. People don’t use in competition that’s just nitpicking.

(VincentRJaeger) #7

It’s anything -but- being nitpicky to be honest.
Shotguns gimp your ability to fight in competitive due to the majority of the fights taking place at mid to long range. Sure you might argue that it’s good for flanking during these situations but there are several easy ways to counter a flank, making the shotgun wielder practically useless in combat.
Some of these ways include HBS if you have a Vassili, simply paying attention and communication, where atleast two of three are guaranteed to be common in Competitive.

(CCP115) #8

Why not follow TF2’s pattern?

It’s really similar to suggestion 1, with a 9x9 grid and the middle consists of two pellets.

It’s really similar to what you suggested, and it works fine, so you know, good job there.

(Eox) #9

[quote=“CCP115;111818”]Why not follow TF2’s pattern?

It’s really similar to suggestion 1, with a 9x9 grid and the middle consists of two pellets.

It’s really similar to what you suggested, and it works fine, so you know, good job there.[/quote]

@CCP115 : I wanted to make the Remburg a 9 pellet shotgun first, but I encountered an issue : the lowest total damage value I found that would be above Hollund’s firepower was exactly 80. I didn’t want to allow shotguns to one shot light mercs without headshots, so I had to tweak values kinda hard.

I think I’ll have to change the Remburg’s pattern though, it does not feel right. :confused: I’ll probably apply your square pattern idea, but make the center pellet deal three times its damage instead if two. It won’t especially make sense since the Remburg is supposed to be the least ranged, but I guess we can balance this with falloff values. What do you think ?

EDIT : the more I think about the triple damage for the center pellet, the more I think it’s a bad idea though. Better stick to two times the damage for the center pellet, or apply this to all shotguns…

Tricky case here.

(ImSploosh) #10

Interesting.

One thing I’ve noticed which bugs me is that shotguns appear to have random damage in a lot of cases. For example, earlier, I shot a Bushwacker pointblank with the Rem (I think), and I did 7% damage. All pellets must have hit considering my barrel was up his ass. He jumped though, but I maintained the target.

That’s definitely not the first time either. I see it all the time. It’s like some bullets just magically don’t hit. It doesn’t appear to be the spread either. Generally, this means life or death too. You have no chance for survival if your first shot doesn’t hit right. :frowning:

(Eox) #11

[quote=“Sploosh;112409”]Interesting.

One thing I’ve noticed which bugs me is that shotguns appear to have random damage in a lot of cases. For example, earlier, I shot a Bushwacker pointblank with the Rem (I think), and I did 7% damage. All pellets must have hit considering my barrel was up his ass. He jumped though, but I maintained the target.

That’s definitely not the first time either. I see it all the time. It’s like some bullets just magically don’t hit. It doesn’t appear to be the spread either. Generally, this means life or death too. You have no chance for survival if your first shot doesn’t hit right. :([/quote]

You can probably thank some kind of lag or hitreg issue for this. I think that issue is common for a lot of shotgun users, and I can remember a lot of times where I was hitting much less than I though with them. I always blamed the spread for this in my case.

(Maggot) #12

Definitely agree the star pattern is part the issue with shotguns. And having a pellet always at the center is very important. Even TF2 does this. However, a circle pattern won’t do much good. A Remburg shot done from medium range will hit with maybe 3 pellets using a circular design – which sounds ok if you ignore the fact that they also suffer heavily from damage falloff. A random pattern would be much better, or if devs are dead-set on set pattern a pseudo-random pattern.

Example:
http://i.imgur.com/D1qXnJV.png

On top of this, I wouldn’t mind if they upped the pellet count for each shotgun. With lower damage per too, of course.

(Eox) #13

[quote=“Maggot;116607”]Definitely agree the star pattern is part the issue with shotguns. And having a pellet always at the center is very important. Even TF2 does this. However, a circle pattern won’t do much good. A Remburg shot done from medium range will hit with maybe 3 pellets using a circular design – which sounds ok if you ignore the fact that they also suffer heavily from damage falloff. A random pattern would be much better, or if devs are dead-set on set pattern a pseudo-random pattern.

Example:
http://i.imgur.com/D1qXnJV.png

On top of this, I wouldn’t mind if they upped the pellet count for each shotgun. With lower damage per too, of course.[/quote]

A random pattern should not be a thing. That game is meant to be competitive so we have to get rid of as much random things affecting gunfights as possible. The star shaped pattern is on all shotguns for that reason (though we want to change it).

Remburg should get another pattern indeed, and the one I suggested was bad, but it should not be a random one.

(Maggot) #14

I’m all for less RNG, but the issue with shotguns in DB is their inconsistency. At optimal range a pattern is not necessary, however the further you get from that the more a pattern is needed. The more you move away from the target the more the default star pattern starts to win out over the purposed circular one. Star pattern has more pellets close to the center, exactly what you want – where as the circular one by design has each pellet as far away from center as possible. Need a nice, tight spread pattern or none at all. If you’re dead-set on pretty shapes gonna need to add more pellets (and lower damage per) to compensate for the dead space in the spread.

(Amerika) #15

[quote=“coolFortress;110538”]

E: Seriously, Nexon, more commoner word for the gassy end product of human gastroenteronomical canal is sensored?[/quote]

This forum is powered by Vanilla and uses a lot of their censor defaults which is why there is some weird issues with what words you can and cannot use. Especially considering what is said in the actual game on a consistent basis.

As for the shotguns…if you want to see how they would work at range just go use a stark or br16 right now and play the exact same way you normally would but forget about needing to be close. I’m not against the proposed changes at all. But do people really want a shotgun that could potentially take off 1/3 of a player’s HP from clear across the map while strafe shooting pot shots from behind doors/boxes? Because that’s what everyone does now but it’s defeated by being able to range the shotgun user forcing them to use their mobility.

Personally, I’d rather see them be toned down slightly and made secondary weapons for some mercs. Give slightly better weapons to the mercs who currently have shotgun primaries, maybe give them a shotgun secondary, maybe change he Ahnuld into something like a model 1892 rifle which would be similar to what it is now but actually has range (while still keeping mostly the same aesthetic). I suggest this simply because it’s incredibly hard to balance a shotgun as a primary weapon without very quickly making it the best weapon in the game at the higher end of the spectrum. Just food for thought.

(sonsofaugust5) #16

@eox I love the center pellet idea. I hit will hit a headshot with the sg and it will do less damage than if i aim for the neck or chest

(Eox) #17

[quote=“Amerika;116860”]

As for the shotguns…if you want to see how they would work at range just go use a stark or br16 right now and play the exact same way you normally would but forget about needing to be close. I’m not against the proposed changes at all. But do people really want a shotgun that could potentially take off 1/3 of a player’s HP from clear across the map while strafe shooting pot shots from behind doors/boxes? Because that’s what everyone does now but it’s defeated by being able to range the shotgun user forcing them to use their mobility.

Personally, I’d rather see them be toned down slightly and made secondary weapons for some mercs. Give slightly better weapons to the mercs who currently have shotgun primaries, maybe give them a shotgun secondary, maybe change he Ahnuhld into something like a model 1892 rifle which would be similar to what it is now but actually has range (while still keeping mostly the same aesthetic). I suggest this simply because it’s incredibly hard to balance a shotgun as a primary weapon without making it very quickly making it the best weapon in the game at the higher end of the spectrum. Just food for thought.[/quote]

That’s definitely insightful.

About the too much ranged shotguns issue, I don’t think a shotgun shot from across the map would take 1/3 of your HP down since the falloff would kick in. If there’s still an issue about it, we can still tweak the falloff values anyway : it’s probably the key.

Maybe we could buff machine pistols with a tighter spread also. After all Proxy and Fletcher does not come with only a shotgun. Two black points to this though : there’s loadouts without a machine pistol, Aura can’t benefit from it, and it’s an indirect buff to Sparks who does not really need one… Maybe not the best idea then.

Also I remember that someone suggested to change some shotguns to shoot slugs instead of buckshots, so there would be just one large bullet instead of 11 pellets. Everything should be compensated by giving a huge falloff value to the slug so you won’t snipe people from across the map efficiently. The slug idea is probably a good one. Maybe we can make it an alt fire for all shotguns ? After all, no one ADS with a shotgun right ? so we can probably change the ADS button on shotguns for an alt fire.

(Maggot) #18

[quote=“Amerika;116860”]But do people really want a shotgun that could potentially take off 1/3 of a player’s HP from clear across the map while strafe shooting pot shots from behind doors/boxes? Because that’s what everyone does now but it’s defeated by being able to range the shotgun user forcing them to use their mobility.[/quote]I don’t think anyone is suggesting that. I certainly am not. However, I do want a more reliable spread pattern. As I recall, SD has expressed interest in giving shotguns more range in an effort to make them more competitive. I think a better spread pattern could help that issue without causing these sniper shotguns you’re afraid of.

[quote=“Amerika;116860”]
Personally, I’d rather see them be toned down slightly and made secondary weapons for some mercs. Give slightly better weapons to the mercs who currently have shotgun primaries, maybe give them a shotgun secondary, maybe change he Ahnuld into something like a model 1892 rifle which would be similar to what it is now but actually has range (while still keeping mostly the same aesthetic). I suggest this simply because it’s incredibly hard to balance a shotgun as a primary weapon without making it very quickly making it the best weapon in the game at the higher end of the spectrum. Just food for thought.[/quote] Not against the idea, so long as they’re kept as the stronger option in CQC.

(sonsofaugust5) #19

@eox NOOOO do not buff machine pistols. I would do even better with vassili. If anything the machine pistols are on another level compared to regular pistols. I can take out 2 guys with a machine pistol and ill be lucky to take out 1 with a regular pistol. I think shotguns should stay as primaries. They are pretty good in my opinion. You have to jump around more and play more close to mid range with them, hence them being shotguns.