A role-system. (combo of class + mercs systems)

(Glottis-3D) #1

3 roles i came up so far. any merc can play any role. so his specialization will be the same, but the amount and combination of Obj-tool/Ability/Guns will differ.

  1. Maestro. Objective role. very good at objs. but with mediocre ability and mediocre guns
  2. Support. Ability-heavy role. Mediocre guns. also can do objs but like a lamer.
  3. Gunner. well. a very Heavy on guns. low on abilities and cannot do objs.

so in the Lobby players get into the Role slots.
the first player goes to the most important (Maestro) slot. so there always will be an Objective guy, even in 1on1.

so with 3v3 we will have all the roles in a team.

every additional player can choose a role by himself.

this is a variation of my double-class system, i suggested before.
http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/41011-Suggestion-Double-class-system-Gametype

with this system we can have
-analog of class objects (tasty!).
-i variety for every merc.
like stoker with two molotovs (Support-Stoker), or Rhino with two aeroguns (Gunner Rhino)!
or like Phoenix with a good gun.
-there will not be problems with rambo medics, because of it will be role, that defines the ramboizm.

so.
any thoughts?

(Szakalot) #2

Re-inventing the wheel.

Any merc can play any role? Choosing a merc is already a role. Huge amounts of additional design&balancing (new guns, new abilities, new obj types).

Lets focus on things that can be done, rather than on stuff that could be done.

(Glottis-3D) #3

well. mercs system clearly doesnt work.
and class system is deleted from game.
i am trying to find a way to fix the problem.

(Szakalot) #4

How does the merc system doesn’t work?

Surely classes can come back; I see a lot of people here pushing for it, we shall see.

I just think its a little too late to try to re-invent the game again

(tokamak) #5

I wouldn’t mind a rough indicator in the lobby on the general ‘theme’ that the team is taking.

Those three themes are the mercs in their most abstract form. That’s okay. Then we could have a triangle like this:

Wouldn’t be that difficult either if you gave each merc a rating in Objective/Combat/Support. Divide 10 points over those three themes and the triangle diagram will give a real-time indication of the merc load-outs in your team.

Classes however, they’re too limiting. There’s more than the 5 traditional classes so using old ET categories provides us with the wrong taxonomy to add more exotic mercs to the mix.

(Anti) #6

Interesting idea having slots with a specific value, Mercs with their own value, then a combination of the two.

My biggest concern (not having given it much thought yet) would be how you communicate the slot’s value to other players during the match. How do I know when Fragger is a Maestro and when he is a Gunner? That could be a lot of additional, not immediately intuitive, information to add.

(Glottis-3D) #7

[QUOTE=Szakalot;512893]How does the merc system doesn’t work?

Surely classes can come back; I see a lot of people here pushing for it, we shall see.

I just think its a little too late to try to re-invent the game again[/QUOTE]

  1. no objects class on pub leads to “everyone can do this = noone cares enough to actually do this” when someone is assigned to the obj then there is much much more clear strategy even on pub.
  2. medics repairong EV for like forever. if something is useless, it shouldnt be in the game. because this confuses, missleads newcomers. and inrages old players.

i realy hope that class system will be back.

it is never too late to make smthng good.

(tokamak) #8

Long shot but, maybe the value can be based on the gathered statistics of players? If people start using Fragger for objectives rather than for killing then his values change over time.

That would be an insane statistical feat but at the same time it would give a really neat reading of the meta-game.

(Glottis-3D) #9

[QUOTE=Anti;512896]Interesting idea having slots with a specific value, Mercs with their own value, then a combination of the two.

My biggest concern (not having given it much thought yet) would be how you communicate the slot’s value to other players during the match. How do I know when Fragger is a Maestro and when he is a Gunner? That could be a lot of additional, not immediately intuitive, information to add.[/QUOTE]

some indication is indeed needed. like obj icon for Maestro. explosion icon for support and pistol icon for gunner.

also possible to make Maestros carry in left hand a clearly visible worktool, a big backpack for support, and a 2 guns in each hand for gunner.
and some color minor skin color indication.

(Glottis-3D) #10

[QUOTE=tokamak;512898]Long shot but, maybe the value can be based on the gathered statistics of players? If people start using Fragger for objectives rather than for killing then his values change over time.

That would be an insane statistical feat but at the same time it would give a really neat reading of the meta-game.[/QUOTE]

this actually striked me.
i imagined the long term merc evolution.

not sure this can be balanced

but what the heck.
any merc can evolve withing a role through monthes of obj/support/gun play.

to the extent of some better layout cards for example (20% obj speed/ additional clips / more weapons to choose etc).

the thing with roles is that you dont need to balance mercs, like we need now. (every mercs should be able to 1on1 every other mercs otherwise it wont be played).

if the team is Maestro heavy - they will use side objs to win.
if the team is Support heavy - they will use abilities
if the team is Gun heavy - they will kill the ***** out of the enemy

(Szakalot) #11

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;512897]1. no objects class on pub leads to “everyone can do this = noone cares enough to actually do this” when someone is assigned to the obj then there is much much more clear strategy even on pub.
2. medics repairong EV for like forever. if something is useless, it shouldnt be in the game. because this confuses, missleads newcomers. and inrages old players.

i realy hope that class system will be back.

it is never too late to make smthng good.[/QUOTE]

Yup, nothing here I disagree with. But then the only change that has to be done is to bring class-specificity (dump mercs to ‘engineer’ ‘medic’ ‘covert’ ‘support (anything goes)’ and ‘soldier (the big dudes)’.

I like the idea of rating specific mercs as ‘killer’ ‘support’ ‘objective’, but instead of a triangle heatmap that will be difficult to read for some people, just make a bar-graph, with your mercs vs. your team’s average in a particular field. Problem is: if we bring back class-specific obj. than having 3 engineers will not advance your team’s ability to hack the coverts obj;similarly ‘nade/area denial support mercs’ will not advance your teams revive capabilities.

(INF3RN0) #12

[QUOTE=Anti;512896]Interesting idea having slots with a specific value, Mercs with their own value, then a combination of the two.

My biggest concern (not having given it much thought yet) would be how you communicate the slot’s value to other players during the match. How do I know when Fragger is a Maestro and when he is a Gunner? That could be a lot of additional, not immediately intuitive, information to add.[/QUOTE]

Weren’t you already doing something like this with perks, just not to such an extreme. There’s no means of knowing what perks people are using either, and though I’m not a fan of this particular idea I think allowing minor proficiencies for support/aggressive/defensive styles in the perks would be fine. I wouldn’t go so far as to imbalance strengths like Glottis is suggesting, but rather being able to fine tune how you’re planning to play; ie bigger/faster heals vs sprint+reload vs air strike warnings vs faster obj completion, etc.

(Glottis-3D) #13

Rhino with 2 guns!

(Glottis-3D) #14

after trying out Evolve alpha test. (a very fun game) from the devs of Left4Dead.

i got into this.
classes or roles - represent, what you must do in a match.
and mercs - represent how you do it within a role.

evolve is balanced in a way, that you wont win without all 4 classes.

so that if DB will be balanced in that way, then we can use some kind of class/role system with role-slots for a match.

(Szakalot) #15

class-specific objectives (both primary and secondary), multiple-phases objective with different classes, these could all apply here

(Nail) #16

I’d still like to see a return to class specific tasks, but with anyone able to “assist”, could also add ammo share and first aid kit (+20HP) to everyone. Making at least some stuff class specific should quiet some W:ET nostalgia including my own. There has to be a better way than anybody can do anything, that usually leads to nobody doing anything except face raging

(Glottis-3D) #17

i myself am thinking the same way.
but i try to think about some variants so that to be able to compare.
right now out of the mercs system, class system, and all other intermediate systems (including my own).
class system is still the best system. even on paper (let alone that we did have played it in ET and ETQW)

i mean it is so simple.

soldiers blow things up
engineers repair things
covert ops hack things
medics heal things

this is so logical and intuitive.

(Nail) #18

I made a list of stuff, but it’s out of city, I’ll be out there Monday, I’ll try remember to grab it