So after reading all this post now it’s obvious there is a major map design problem ! not only little adjustment.
And if nothing is done, I mean a real rework, I really have big doubt on the game life time …
Cause at the beginning you say yes it’s nice, but after a few on it you have a strange boring feeling coming really quick. Repetitiveness and linearity !
You know the pc fps genre is awful when I, the hater of console gaming, is enjoying black ops 2 more then any other game, especially db…I don’t even turn my computer on anymore :x.
[QUOTE=Anti;452838]You said you had issues with limited routes and options, which I asked more about, this is just a list of stuff you don’t like not limited options 
For example, I’d say the LB GH Building with the docs in has a pretty good choice of options in terms of attacker routes and choke points for defenders to push out to. If we’re focused on feedback around variety and routes I’d say it has good flow but maybe bad spawn times/spawn position.
Lets try to focus this on examples of good flow and choice, and examples of bad flow and choice, just so I can understand better where you folks think we’ve got it right and wrong. I have my own views on these but I’d like to see how they compare with you folks.
For now ignore objective times, spawn times, spawn locations etc.[/QUOTE]
First of all, I would like to know whats your definition of “flow”. Read it to many times when it came to map layouts/objectives. A river does flow, a river when it was growing came across some resistence and either wiped them out or it did take a diffrent direction to get around it. But it did this hundred years back in time and nowadays the flow direction is scratched in the landscape.
The conclusion of this would be attackers are heavily favored to win the map because they are in the flow.
Also something that worried me when i saw it: changing maps/spawnpoints by using echo. My concern would be; who was analysing the data and made decision of what to change? For example the echo video showed the deaths of all players(?) on waterloo, mostly at the last part of the map. You changed spawnpoints of def and att there and shifted obstacles only(?) and suddenly you got more deaths at the first part of the map? How did it effect the first stage?
When I see this death heatmap in the video i think taking the forward spawn or planting the gates was to easy and the c4 obj. were (still is) really difficult. Moving the att. spawn spreads out the kill/death area, true, but how does it solve the main problem?
I think echo should be used to see if chokepoints work the way they should be, being a deathtraps which you have to overcome:
Example: sw_goldrush_te: Team dignitas vs. zeroPoint gaming 2007
This shows the deaths of the attacking Team. Most deaths at the known chokepoints which get covered/crossfired by the defenders.
Imo this has to be a main point to achieve, setting them and make them work.
About the GH building; the layout is okay but switching the def. respawn could add more to it. I made a drawing in diffrent thread about this.
[QUOTE=INF3RN0;452558]
2. I want to see more significant experimental patches and more detailed dev threads regarding limitations and goals so that I don’t waste time wandering off on my feedback. If I understand the goals in detail then I can focus my feedback towards improving those goals instead of setting my own. I also think SD should be more open to the occasional erratic test just to test the water, as long as it isn’t too overly complex ofc.[/QUOTE]
This is sort of what I just sent them in a message. We’re all shooting from the hip in an open field with no targets. Give us a football field and some receivers so we can better assist you.
[QUOTE=Anti;452679]I understand that, but you folks have to bear in mind that at this stage of the game we really want to be spending most of our time getting the game in shape. We read the forums a lot, but posting on the forums to justify something or give detailed updates often ends up in tonnes more questions and debate, it fast becomes a huge time sink.
As the alpha and beta go on the core systems will become more locked down and stable, the amount of balancing being done will go up and we’re likely to have much more time to engage in debate with the community.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you can designate a peon to sit in the meetings. take copious notes, and then post them here for our feedback on what you guys are thinking? That would free up time for you guys an idea of what’s going on.
From what I see right now, it’s not the balancing that people are really complaining about, but the core mechanics. The recent thread I started shows that most of the problems are in general feeling and map design (see http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/36547-What-we-want-for-DB).
I’d like to know that this thread is used by the devs, because it’s an aweful lot of work to keep all this information clear and meaningful, but globally it’s worth the investment. When I see the devs go for dev sprints of 4 weeks and more, I become worried because the more likely there gonna be too much new stuff at once, with 0 feedback from the players. This is risky in IT … because the client gets disconnected from the product.
Major change in RL circumstances, don’t have the time to be on that I used to have. I also think I’m just not a fan in general of larger maps with a lot of objectives, lengthy matches and meat grinder encounters. I alleviated my boredom of this in ETQW (and to a point Brink) by tricking and learning the movement system, since that doesn’t really exist in DB then there’s not much else left to appeal to me.
They should add this text to the frontpage instead of this:
Did you really say it? I wonder… I find the quote pretty misleading. I know some people bought the game because of it. I did it as well, but to find out that you don’t even find DB appealing…
Currently it’s mainly school and summer time.
But yeah Kendle is right, as for myself I still have to finish my last games in this cup, so that’s also a reason.
I also would like to see what SD dev guys themselves would like to achieve with DB.
I feel exactly the same. 
Sometimes I really worry about the time, as my prediction for the release is still this year.
Stopped playing because of other testers is not really in the ‘tester spirit’ either.
I’m pretty sure you can talk to the majority of these guys, although I know not all players in here a used to a friendly tone. 
[QUOTE=Samurai.;452677]In terms of DB why the lack of activity?..
Well few things that i think a couple of people have picked on already in addition to my own reasons:
Each map pretty much plays the same each time… there’s very limited diversity or alternate roles/things to do that make each game unique.
The maps are way too linear + minimal interaction with the environment - need more rooftops opened up, more offices in buildings, ladders, crates to get to places, use for cover etc.
The extreme lack of captureable spawn points make pub/comp pretty bland - in ETQW the spawn points were where all the fun was at, as it was where you knew where the enemy team was, there was a large risk-reward scenario as you were outnumbered facing a lot of people (i.e more kills in 1 place = more fun for me) but if you captured the spawn it would make a big difference to helping defend/attack… DB just ignores this entire fundamental part of game play and i really think SD have underestimated the importance of capture-able spawn points MASSIVELY for map flow, for teamplay, for gameplay, for strategies and most importantly for player enjoyment.
The game is diversifying becoming more gimmicky but adding “shallow gimmicks” rather than any depth to core mechanics. It’s like DB is trying to put out as many shallow features as possible to satisfy the immediate gamer, with no long term depth, skill ceiling or potential to master any features, so after playing in the alpha for a while, there is no personal progression for me in the game, nothing new to learn/improve at other than aiming, in which the mouse sensitivity feels awful compared to all other FPS games i play so trying to improve aiming here is terrible.
Adding on to number 4 - one i guess no-one has heard before a million times. The Movement System. Enough said.
Pretty much number 5 is a prime example - not much is changing, we spout out the same feedback all day long, SD nods, releases next patch - not in there, we spout out same feedback, SD nods, releases next patch - not in there. Just happens again and again, nothing is moving at the moment in the game. It’s been like a month since the last patch and the MS video’s introducing the next shallow gimmicky features really if anything make me want to appreciate the state of the game when i first joined the alpha in it’s basic state. There’s little activity on the forums as well because everyone has given all the general feedback we can give, but when nothing changes we can’t make up new stuff. If anything we need SD dev’s to start threads specific to an area of the game they want our feedback on, just like the TTK Thread that got started by a dev before.
So yeah essentially there is nothing i can contribute to DB right now by playing until some changes get made, so i just stick to clean fun games that i feel like i can make progression in like ETQW Pro and CS:GO atm.[/QUOTE]
This post hits the nail on the head! What Samurai said is exactly what I think at the moment. I could comment every aspect he named now, but I would only repeat myself so I let it stand as it is.
Sorry for offtopic, but BF4 -> same as BF3 -> casual game for the gamers of today (not in a good way…) :rolleyes:
I think the opposite is the case. The skill gap between good and weaker players is very small.
[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;452980]Major change in RL circumstances, don’t have the time to be on that I used to have. I also think I’m just not a fan in general of larger maps with a lot of objectives, lengthy matches and meat grinder encounters. I alleviated my boredom of this in ETQW (and to a point Brink) by tricking and learning the movement system, since that doesn’t really exist in DB then there’s not much else left to appeal to me.
[QUOTE=Ruben0s;452996]They should add this text to the frontpage instead of this:
Did you really say it? I wonder… I find the quote pretty misleading. I know some people bought the game because of it. I did it as well, but to find out that you don’t even find DB appealing…[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
Hahaha, Ruben0s pointed it out well. 
It’s indeed a bit contradicting.
But as we all know these are all just slogans anyway.
I will join the general map discussion in other threads, as there are still things to do.
I know it are slogans, but things like these remove the “goodwill” I have towards a brand. And I already almost had none with SD, because how SD handled things with Brink.
Seriously, I can get mad about thing like this.
Edit: I can’t resist it.
While there are issues, some my own and some DB, I also have to say that I also got turned off by the players. Bumping into the same players, being pwnd by high skill players, being moaned by “experts”, having the win or lose dependant on whether people feel like player or derping around. It just makes the effort required that much greater and ultimately you’re still dealing with game related issues that detract from the fun of it all. It’s not fun and while this is a test surely a big part of the feedback should be engagement and fun of the overall product.
I honestly think we need an injection of new players, we’ve reached this point where opinion is becoming some incestuous thing because just playing is becoming more and more of an issue.
<sigh> As if I needed to underline the point of playing/interacting with a bunch of trolls.
If the reason why people are not playing is because players are “better” or “higher skilled” I am actually quite taken back! When I first started playing players as bad as [u]MUSTANG[/u] were taking me down 10 times out of 10. I kept at it, as I would like to think most others would do here and then the other day, pully put me into the “best players to make a team” list. Quite a difference from when I first started out! Is that not a good thing for DB right now?
People don’t pick a Guitar up and expect to master it right away and I feel that is the same with DB. Practice makes perfect and this isn’t a scrubs game like BF or COD that you can get good at in 24 hours.
The reason why I rarely play is a bit like what Anti said. It’s a leaky bucket and it’s hard to test each individual feature in the right context as long as there are other factors that still need working on. I think the forums pretty much generated all the feedback that could possible given on the current state of the game so far so the only use we would have would be generating Echo data.
Now I would be all for that but to be honest, it simply isn’t as fun. My leisure time is scarce as is. I would be playing more if I was less busy but yeah, to only play the game to generate data that we ourselves don’t have any access to is simply not appealing.
[QUOTE=Ruben0s;452996]They should add this text to the frontpage instead of this:
Did you really say it? I wonder… I find the quote pretty misleading. I know some people bought the game because of it. I did it as well, but to find out that you don’t even find DB appealing…[/QUOTE]
In the beginning when I gave that quote I was playing all the time, every night, same as I was with ET when it came out. With ET I migrated onto tricking because I lost interest in the standard game probably for the same reason I’m losing interest in DB, in fact I solely trickjumped in ET for about 3 years. It all feels familiar but there’s nothing ‘extra’ for me to get my teeth into when I lose interest in the standard game. Do I think it captures the magic of ET? In many ways yes, which is why I think ET players will get along well with the game. Does that mean I have to be in awe of it after 8 months with a few maps, little testing pool and particular design choice I personally don’t like? No… don’t be silly
this sentence reveal some kind of broken stuff.
“Lot of particular design choices” make me a bit afraid for the future of this game, cause i’m totally agree
What design choices? Don’t be vague. And how do you know when something is a genuine choice?
