A recent lack of activity?

[Anti]

…without being the randomness and constant backrape that is London Bridge 2nd barrier.

We discussed that quite a bit this week

[Violator]

[QUOTE=Anti;452797]Could you point out the places you feel this is worst? I know of some, but in other cases I feel maps are varied enough. It would be good to know what you feel are the worst areas and the best areas.

We’re constantly battling to balance the maps such that there is variety and options, but that there are also the choke points and front-line that make Objective mode different to the porous maps of games like CoD and BF.[/QUOTE]

Whitechapel is probably the best example of linearity. There are a couple of parallel side passages (the bell room on right and steps on left) at the start + the restaurants on the right once you are round the bend, but its still one route IKEA style - this pattern continues for the rest of the map. Canary Wharf is also guilty of this.

London Bridge, this was more varied but a lot of routes have been blocked off esp. around the first objective, though there were complaints that there was too much choice here and players were getting lost.

Waterloo is more like it for varied routes, there is the straight up the steps route, the side spiral steps, the pipe bridge + the optional tunnel side objective.

Camden has the best design IMHO - always several route choices and open areas, making for more tactical options.

[BomBaKlaK]

[QUOTE=Anti;452796]I thought I’d qualified what I said in the post quoted above later in that thread, but just to be clear (and as MrEd has said), technically nothing is ever ‘done’ and we can always go back to it. However, the cost of some big changes, like considerable map flow alterations to near final art maps, are very costly to do with regards to time and resources. At some points you just have to accept a map won’t be perfect and get on with making a new one which learns from the last.

That doesn’t mean any of the maps we have now are fully locked down, we’re still adjusting elements of flow on them as you’ll see next patch.[/QUOTE]

Ok ! So things are near the final approach at some point.
But actually on 5 maps, I like 1 map and even this one is still a narrow corridor …

How many maps do you want for the game release ? cause actually that’s make a lot of tiny maps

[QUOTE=Anti;452797]Could you point out the places you feel this is worst? I know of some, but in other cases I feel maps are varied enough. It would be good to know what you feel are the worst areas and the best areas.

We’re constantly battling to balance the maps such that there is variety and options, but that there are also the choke points and front-line that make Objective mode different to the porous maps of games like CoD and BF.[/QUOTE]

So

• LB since you close the 1rst spawn with a fence (aka follow this way !)
• LB narrow streets and no real side way (ex: the part before the 1rst barricade)
• WC all the start before the chapel. (boring, 1 main route and just some pseudo side way)
• CW follow the tunnel !
• CW lemming rush powwaaa !
• Waterloo smallest map ever, but I like the second part.
• Camden 1rst objective

and actually I still play a bit of BF3 in squad rush and rush, and in DB you have a real claustrophobic feeling !
there is progression to in BF3 rush, but you don’t have the feeling to follow a corridor in most of the maps (except bazar or metro) there is more possibilities than in DB and they just put some MCOM (easy objective way) but you still have a feeling of freedom, you can use multiple routes, there is plenty of possibilities to jump on the objective. That’s what I love from Wolf ET and ETQW you have so many ways to do the obj.

In DB you just put the players in a tiny box then shake it a bit. There is a major issue with the map scale imo.

[pulley]

[QUOTE=Anti;452797]Could you point out the places you feel this is worst? I know of some, but in other cases I feel maps are varied enough. It would be good to know what you feel are the worst areas and the best areas.

We’re constantly battling to balance the maps such that there is variety and options, but that there are also the choke points and front-line that make Objective mode different to the porous maps of games like CoD and BF.[/QUOTE]

Waterloo for example. Last Objective you can get the plant down very often but the defenders have it to easy to defuse. So it feels like running 20 times the same way for nothing because u cant hold the objective.

Camdon Last Stage. Same as Waterloo.

Camdon First Stage. You always get stuck at many stairs. Thats really ****ing me up XD Or you cant jump over the fence near the MG House.

London Bridge carryable objectives. If defenders a set up in the house its to hard to get the objectives out.

White Chapel carryable objectives. Its to easy for attackers in SW Mode because of long defender spawn and to hard on objective Server.

I really dont like how you guys set up the carryable objectives. It seems like you wonna have more infight at the objectives. That seems ok but as the maps are very long it only works out cutting out some other objectives of the map.

[Ruben0s]

[QUOTE=Anti;452797]Could you point out the places you feel this is worst? I know of some, but in other cases I feel maps are varied enough. It would be good to know what you feel are the worst areas and the best areas.

We’re constantly battling to balance the maps such that there is variety and options, but that there are also the choke points and front-line that make Objective mode different to the porous maps of games like CoD and BF.[/QUOTE]

Just take Goldrush and compare it to London Bridge.

The first part where you have to steal the tank / EV.

With Goldrush you can approach the tank from three different routes, all from different angles / places ( infront, behind, side ways). London Bridge on the other hand has also three routes, but they end up in the same tiny part of the map (infront / above the EV). That’s imo how you make maps linear and boring. You basically walk towards the EV all the time, while with Goldrush you have the option to go around the first part of the map and steal the tank from behind.

I guess if I will show it with actual screenshots / top down maps it will be much clearer, but I don’t have the time to do it.

Worst part is that this goes on and on. The part where the tank/ev goes downhill towards the first barrier? With Goldrush you have tons of ways to get to the first barrier, with London Bridge only one… after that part the map starts to open up a bit more, but towards the end it’s linear all over again. Imo London Bridge is a completely ruined version of Goldrush.

But this is only London Bridge, I have this feeling with every map, and it worries me to death that you, anti, feel that maps are varied enough.

From all the maps camden is the map that feels a bit good, but it’s still mediocre at best.

[Tast1c]

my reason to play bf4 A) i have a good team B) Dreamhack winter here we come

[acQu]

[QUOTE=Ruben0s;452829]Just take Goldrush and compare it to London Bridge.

The first part where you have to steal the tank / EV.

With Goldrush you can approach the tank from three different routes, all from different angles / places ( infront, behind, side ways). London Bridge on the other hand has also three routes, but they end up in the same tiny part of the map (infront / above the EV). That’s imo how you make maps linear and boring. You basically walk towards the EV all the time, while with Goldrush you have the option to go around the first part of the map and steal the tank from behind.

I guess if I will show it with actual screenshots / top down maps it will be much clearer, but I don’t have the time to do it.

Worst part is that this goes on and on. The part where the tank/ev goes downhill towards the first barrier? With Goldrush you have tons of ways to get to the first barrier, with London Bridge only one… after that part the map starts to open up a bit more, but towards the end it’s linear all over again. Imo London Bridge is a completely ruined version of Goldrush.

But this is only London Bridge, I have this feeling with every map, and it worries me to death that you, anti, feel that maps are varied enough.

From all the maps camden is the map that feels a bit good, but it’s still mediocre at best.[/QUOTE]

Signed. Have my money !!!

P.S. so true, had a blast trying to explain this already, and even some forum members didnt get what i was trying to say. In the end i just gave up lol, it really seems to be some sort of “getting used” to while at the same time never “seen an alternative”. There is this one equation a famous greek philosopher once made, derp…something about sitting in caves and taking the shadows for reality … but i am exxagerating

[FROST1]

I’m a bit late here, but here we go.

First and foremost, I’ve developed this extremely annoying headache issue. Maybe it’s related to the high character speed*, but I can’t say for sure. A couple months back, I thought my issues were linked to the different view bobs and the constant changing of very bright spots with very dark areas on the maps. And I still think, those things are a factor, but only because the fast paceing of the game allready cooked my brain and eyes.

Under the bottom line I think I’m just getting old; therefore the above is only an explanation why I haven’t played DB very much lately, and not a suggestion, what should be changed, or altered in the game; even though, the reduction of those extremely bright spots was/is a very good thing, regardless of my personal issues.

The other thing, that kept me away a bit was the fact, that DB is very high skill atm and therefore kinda annoying if you are not a 100% concentrated, and /or skilled enough. BUT that is indirectly linked to my first point and has nothing to do with the game itself.

The third reason is the movement system, wich, maybe only for me, still doesn’t feel good, or in any way enjoyable; but, I’ve learned to cope with it. Especially “WASD” feels so clunky, it’s just no fun to me. Everytime I push one of those keys it reminds me, that, no matter what else will be changed and added, there is still one thing, that keeps DB from being fun to play.

I mean it’s like in a car race, even if the skill level is very high and your condition is not absolutely perfect, if your car feels and drives great, it’s still fun just to race down the track, but if it’s also a chore to steer the car, then, no matter what, it’s just no fun.(Not the greatest example, I know, but I don’t have much time atm )

*(compared to the games I’ve played so far)

[Kendle]

Just take Goldrush and compare it to London Bridge.

If I was SD I’d be pulling my hair out about LB. To begin with it was very much like Goldrush, but people complained that being shot at from too many angles made the game feel too random so they closed off some of the routes. Now it doesn’t have enough routes and feels too linear?

Some people say the maps need definable front lines and choke points, others want open maps with multiple approach angles. How do you cater for both?

The only way is to make several maps and accept most of them will only be liked by some people.

[Anti]

[QUOTE=pulley;452807]Waterloo for example. Last Objective you can get the plant down very often but the defenders have it to easy to defuse. So it feels like running 20 times the same way for nothing because u cant hold the objective.

Camdon Last Stage. Same as Waterloo.

Camdon First Stage. You always get stuck at many stairs. Thats really ****ing me up XD Or you cant jump over the fence near the MG House.

London Bridge carryable objectives. If defenders a set up in the house its to hard to get the objectives out.

White Chapel carryable objectives. Its to easy for attackers in SW Mode because of long defender spawn and to hard on objective Server.

I really dont like how you guys set up the carryable objectives. It seems like you wonna have more infight at the objectives. That seems ok but as the maps are very long it only works out cutting out some other objectives of the map.[/QUOTE]

You said you had issues with limited routes and options, which I asked more about, this is just a list of stuff you don’t like not limited options

For example, I’d say the LB GH Building with the docs in has a pretty good choice of options in terms of attacker routes and choke points for defenders to push out to. If we’re focused on feedback around variety and routes I’d say it has good flow but maybe bad spawn times/spawn position.

Lets try to focus this on examples of good flow and choice, and examples of bad flow and choice, just so I can understand better where you folks think we’ve got it right and wrong. I have my own views on these but I’d like to see how they compare with you folks.

For now ignore objective times, spawn times, spawn locations etc.

[acQu]

What routes have been closed exactly. I only noticed the back of LB now has barriers so that you can’t get to the “bank” (thing with datacores) from behind. That is the only route i saw closed? O-o

[Volcano]

you know that garage near attackers start first phase LB it now has a long wall and a car parked between that road, you used to be able to get behind the enemy from going the backway, and at that garage with the van that leads onto the railway there used to be another entrance to the lower office area first phase

[Kendle]

^ LB first stage you used to be able to go through the building which has the ramp up to the bridge from attacker side, and come out of a door in the area behind the building that’s opposite defender spawn. Now you can only go over the bridge to get down behind the EV. The fence that separates the ramp area from the defenders last spawn used to be open so you could go right round the map and come to defenders from behind if you wanted.

But like I say, SD are getting feedback that the maps are too open and too prone to random attacks from all sides, and also getting feedback that they’re too linear and not open enough. They can’t be both, obviously, so who should SD listen to?

edit 1 : Personally I think we should forget trying to make every map conform to everything we say we want (because we all want different things) and help them build a range of maps to cater for all tastes.

I’d like to help them make a (ET) Radar or (RTCW) Village type map, others may want a Market Garden 64 player extravaganza, but either way not all maps can be all things to all people, so let’s start helping them produce specific maps for specific scenarios and those not interested in those scenarios keep their negative opinions out of it.

edit 2 : a question to SD, do you have another block-out map in the works after Canary Wharf? If you’ve yet to start the next map can we make suggestions and have a dedicated thread for ideas for a specific type of map?

[rookie1]

…But like I say, SD are getting feedback that the maps are too open and too prone to random attacks from all sides, and also getting feedback that they’re too linear and not open enough. They can’t be both, obviously, so who should SD listen to?

I’m getting this reflexion often also …some says Black some says white …they only ways I see is to go …grey
I mean .Varieties …one may hate the map but the other one may say that its his best one …

[acQu]

Yees, i tried to formalize what is wrong with most of the maps from my point of view. It was not so well perceived imo, but there are example maps out there where stuff is working, i would advice looking at that examples.

Imo what is wrong is that at that the paths in DB are filled with hot spots. It is a bottleneck of all the maps imo, that is, along a path there are just too many hot spots: open windows, upper areas … these need to be closed, while on the other hand you need to open up true alternat paths, which are meaningful and give illusion of having multiple options; and indeed you have when done this way. So like Ruben said, in goldrush you had true alternative routes to the tank, in DB you have alternate corridors. Maybe that is the way to describe it better, routes vs corridors along a route.

Tried to actually conceptualize this with my 2-3-1, but seeing how it was replied to it, it was not understood. There is a difference in having the option to go for path A or path B compared to going along path A along different routes. It is the microlevel paths we have in DB, in other games of SD this was just a little bit more open and the routes were longer, eventually leading into other routes, and eventually leading up to the objective; this gave illusion of having more options actually.

[Ruben0s]

[QUOTE=Kendle;452837]Now it doesn’t have enough routes and feels too linear?

[/QUOTE]
The amount of routes is ok, but they all end up at the same place of the map. So for me it feels basically like one route.

[Humate]

For example, I’d say the LB GH Building with the docs in has a pretty good choice of options in terms of attacker routes and choke points for defenders to push out to. If we’re focused on feedback around variety and routes I’d say it has good flow but maybe bad spawn times/spawn position.

I agree that there are plenty of options, but if a team opts to use all those choices at once… the defence has too much of a firepower advantage as they can easily shift and collapse. Especially Tree/bush route and defenders spawn route.

BTW I dont believe this is a map issue.

[Mustang]

Black is white and white is black…

Yet most people will say Camden is the best so far and Salvage was often preferred by many on ETQW, so there is obviously some consensus.

[warbie]

But like I say, SD are getting feedback that the maps are too open and too prone to random attacks from all sides, and also getting feedback that they’re too linear and not open enough. They can’t be both, obviously, so who should SD listen to?

I haven’t seen feedback on maps being too open, and either way, openness has little to do with random attacks. RTCW and ET’s maps were far more open than DB’s and didn’t suffer from Benny Hill style back/side shooting. Look at Beach - great big open sandbox of greatness, but the front lines were clearly defined and not open to random encounters. The same with Ice, Supply, Oasys … the list goes on and on. Even the more compact maps like Village and Base weren’t prone to this kind of thing as, once again, the front lines were clear and because they were focussed around clear choke points. At the moment I feel the maps are the biggest problem DB faces, even more than a spawn times, average ttk, class balance/skills etc

[rand0m]

Lets take a page from beach here, on LB. Add a tunnel going from the side house near the GH building where the mg is that you can crouch through the vent and drop down on top of the objective like mp_beach had for its objective room. There’s another route that can be taken and give some more immersion and alternate routes rather then the 2 doors only. LB should have a say to traverse the entire map without having to run into the action like gold rush had. Take put the big train stop area of Camden, have the tracks wide, but maybe place a train car where that weird room is on the tracks. Waterloo is a decent map minis the objective room it’s awful. That could come down to being just the fact that defense spawn times are too short, but if I had to take away 2 c4 plants or should only need to be 1. I don’t understand what your goal is with so many main objectives, 3-4 data cores, 2 c4 plants, 1 is enough. We need a wide open map, canary warf is just the same thing all over again except the final objective is abysmal at best. The only map I actually like is LB, which everyone else seems to hate, but it needs some tweaking.