A Mostly Accurate Merc Tierlist


(bgyoshi) #81

[quote=“Szakalot;c-226254”]@bgyoshi
again - what balance is there to be done? Weapon/Merc balance is overall very good on pubs - because personal skill is 95% of your success.[/quote]

I agree with you pretty whole-heartedly on this. The only exceptions are Thunder’s ability being incredibly weak in pubs (I really don’t know how to ‘fix’ it from being too good in ranked) and Fletcher nades are just too good period in pubs, weapons in DB are really balanced.

The discussion wasn’t me saying that we need to balance DB, I just notice people complaining about the Grandeur when it’s really not imbalanced at all. So the discussion started, and lead into “YEAH BUT RANKED” and people just don’t understand that you can’t and shouldn’t balance an entire game based on professional play. You have to balance professional play on its own.


(Dawnlazy) #82

[quote=“bgyoshi;c-226248”]I highly recommend you actually study weapon balance in other FPS’ a lot more, because it’s clear you haven’t.

I challenge you to find one sport or game where the rules and balance are identical for all levels of play. Hint: You can’t. Professional play always has more rules, more restrictions, stricter enforcement, and less players than the respective lower levels of play. Whether you’re talking about football or baseball or Starcraft or even DB, the rules and balance are always different at the top level.[/quote]
tl; dr: competitive play has actual match skill balance and therefore conditions from which to derive gameplay balance as opposed to the randomness and inherent disparity in pubs.

No. The very root of your original argument is that the Grandeur is only OP “if you can aim”, as if “aim” is this magical mystical power wielded by a select few within the player case; that is most certainly not the case. What I mean to imply here is that the Grandeur is broken in itself and it’s not something pertaining to aim (also it’s easy to aim with it).

Let’s make this clear: it is not only impractical but also outright impossible to base any serious balance in pub play. You will rarely have matches in which the players are close in skill level like you can in a DBN cup and thus have no condition to observe which things repeatedly demonstrate OPness or UPness. Competitive players have every incentive to use and abuse everything that gives them an edge and to completely ditch anything that is ineffective.

In pubs if you understand the map layout and spawn timers you can simply roam around the map in circles with basically any merc and collect them 50 kill badges, and hence have people coming over to the forums and make ludicrous claims about Proxy or Rhino being OP because they don’t check their flank or they just walk in a straight line into the Rhino; or about Vassilis on their team being “useless” based on simple negative preconceived notions of snipers in FPS games despite him being absolutely dominant and broken in the hands of someone who understands the game’s mechanics, and those players only being “useless” because they’re new and inexperienced regardless of which merc they’re using. This is why you can’t ever balance for pubs instead of competitive, there is no consistency and therefore no base from which to derive any semblance of gameplay balance at all.


(bgyoshi) #83

Pretty sure you’re confusing “aim” with when I actually said “100% headshots”, which is actually just hacking. Yes, headshots are super strong because they’re very hard to land. With sniper rifles, you get a heavy punishment for missing any shot, because you have a very low RPM and few rounds per clip. The general point of a sniper is to counter tanks, and that requires high damage headshots with high punishment for missing.

Grandeur is arguably the most punished for missing a headshot because its body shots are incredibly weak compared to all other sniper rifles. It takes two shots to accomplish what other sniper rifles do in one shot. Your gripe is that it can be used with hip-fire AND at range while moving. You forget that it used to have a hip-fire penalty and that made it literally unusable at all levels of play, because it was strictly worse than a PDP. So they gave it back hip-fire and gave it a huge damage penalty by comparison. And just because someone can also headshot from across the map with iron sights… that’s not a real imbalance, that’s just being good at the game.

Snipers dominate in all FPS’ because they are powerful in the hands of someone that is excellent with their aim. That’s a reward for being a good shot. I personally think snipers have no place in these kinds of FPS’ at all, but as long as they’re there, deal with it.

Learn how to countersnipe. That’s what countersniping is for. Yeah it sucks balls playing 4v4 instead of 5v5 because someone is dedicated to sniping, but that’s y’alls problem. You guys adore 5v5 for whatever reason, so either come to the realization that 5v5 with snipers is garbage, or stop whining and get good at sniping. As it turns out, scopes will always dominate iron sights in a long range fight. Smoke isn’t a Grandeur problem, that’s a Red Eye problem.

So yeah, the core of my argument is that people being a good shot doesn’t make the Grandeur broken. I know you think that close range aiming is easy, but when you have 3 people that can all aim at the same skill level, the Grandeur will lose every single close range 2v1. All of them.

You truthfully do not understand the concept that balancing a game for high level play eliminates the possibility of low level players succeeding at it. There will be no gradual skill progression, just a vertical line for a learning curve, and then a flat horizontal line for the 1% that can reach the top.

Game balance is way more complicated than flat-lining everyone’s ability to succeed.

I understand how it intuitively feels right to balance based on competitive for all the reasons you say, but it’s just one of those things that is better on paper than it is in practice.


(Dawnlazy) #84

The Grandeur is not a headshot-dependant weapon, at all. Snipers in this game, in general, are not headshot dependant. Snipers aren’t good only “in the hands of someone that is excellent with their aim”, aiming with a sniper rifle is not hard. It is considerably harder to consistently hit someone with an SMG or an M4 than it is with a Grandeur or a sniper rifle.

What no way people will lose a fight where they’re alone against 2 other players? Are you fucking kidding me?

Correction, it is the only way to have people at lower levels of play also experiencing balanced gameplay elements. Like I said, pubs = imbalanced skill matchup by definition where anything works if you simply outskill others, competitive = matches where players are actually close to each other in skill level and are also inclined to search for what is broken and avoid what sucks. If you balance weapons at a competitive level, you will also have the effect of having balanced gameplay at lower levels as long as that particular match is balanced with regards to player skill, meaning if everyone is at the same “low” level.


(Xenithos) #85

[quote=“Szakalot;c-226254”]@Xenithos lol 10hp/sec, seriously?
Self-regen of any merc is at 6hp/sec i think.

People can take fire from 1/2 opponents on the station, do you really think it happens at 10hp a sec. It used to be 40hp/sec some time ago. I do no think it was changed. Just go to a station one day, in 3 sec you’re at full health, im sure.
[/quote]

Seriously, something was wrong with me whenever I was thinking about Aura’s healing station… wtf was I getting 10/second from? I’m not sure I’ll ever figure it out… The other numbers should be right though…
Edit of my edit of ma response… I just realized that that ~10 is actually supposed to be the close to additional hp when being healed on the station when the Aura has potent packs… I’m going to go find a wall and hit my head on it. I remember posting about the fact that an additional close to 10 hp per second on an Aura’s healing station wasn’t a joking matter… and then ya know what, I think I’ve been saying 10 hp a second since… lol… ugh.


(Szakalot) #86

@bgyoshi you really don’t need headshots to perform with Grandeur. at long range it might sometime be even better to focus on maintaining high rof and make sure the opponents get hit with bodyshots. getting 3 bodyshots is easy and can be done incredibly quickly.

i do agree that the weapon is one of the most difficult to learn in DB, but i dont see how nerfing it a bit to save the comp scene will affect pubs really. most people that dont use it, still wont; most people that are good with it, still will.

one thing to mention is that it always takes pubs some time to catch up to comp meta. maybe not now, or in a month, but at some point people will realize how strong grandeur is and overuse it. youll get a lot of overperforming redeyes and aimees, and theyll have to nerf it again.

not sure why you think thunder is horrible on pubs, you can pick timik+drilled and just walk around the map racking up kills. Flash is still very potent, and just as undodgeable.


(El_padre_) #87

all merc are good,just if you know how use it,i see you take phantom in the last list but he’s powerfull when u know how use,i win a lot of ranked match with him and with other “not good” merc


(Diosito) #88

In my opinion Snipers and Phantom should be removed/limited from ranked, they are not strong enough to set up a consistent push.

You have to equal Nineballs skills (as minimum) with sniper rifle to make it worth/work.

Abbadon
Abaddon


(bgyoshi) #89

One day, you might put two and two together in your own argument and realize what I’m talking about. Until then, I don’t know how to explain it any more clearly than I already have. we can’t get anywhere if you refuse to comprehend anything I’m saying.

I disagree, I’m more than certain it will get the Thunder effect, where anyone under level 30 will just simply stop using it in pubs and no one will try to pick it up.

There’s too many players to be effective with Thunder in pubs. The flash and stun, especially the fall off, don’t last long enough to hold down the players supporting the one or two that caught the full force of the flash. By the time you, as the Thunder, can turn a corner and start firing, you’re more often than not already under fire by 2 or 3 people that weren’t caught in the center blast, and you can’t pick up kills from the people you actually nailed. There was a noticeable and sharp decrease in Thunder players after this last update, and I don’t think I’ve seen someone under 30 playing Thunder in pubs since. The problem is he was perfectly balanced in pubs, but still completely unfair in Ranked…and now he’s entirely nerfed to worthlessness in pubs, and STILL unfair in Ranked.


(Szakalot) #90

do you play with mk46?

i dont see any of the effects you desribe, though i only ever play on minlvl servers


(pumpkinmeerkat) #91

170 HP + Stark is OP with or without conc nade…


(bgyoshi) #92

I have, but that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about being unable to flash a whole team like you can in comp, and now you can’t even flash people long enough for you to engage them while they’re still blind…

…with or without the Stark.

Burst weapons are good but they don’t win 5v2s, which happen a lot in pubs, and never will.

170 HP goes away faster than you can react when you’re being focused down by 3 - 5 people at once. It’s just not worth it to engage with Thunder after conc in pubs now.

Besides, if the Stark is your only gripe about Thunder, just switch to Kira or Stoker like everyone else does, because their abilities actually work in pubs, which is why more players use them instead of Thunder.


(neverplayseriou) #93

bygoshi please go back to your max lvl 6 servers.


(Szakalot) #94

@bgyoshi i cant agree with your opinion on thunder. Pick timik, it makes thunder almost as fast as fragger, its still REALLY easy to pop flash off a a single wall and get 2-3kills on completely blind+stationary opponents. if you also get drilled, you will kill people so fast, youre never gonna have any ammo


(Eox) #95

I don’t think you’re supposed to win a 5vs2, even with a MK46.


(n-x) #96

Maybe its time to take into consideration that its not possible to balance Thunder (and maybe some other mercs) for casual AND ranked.

If you balance him for ranked so he wont be OP and the conc just strong enough to give a nice advantage on a push, he will be to weak for casual. Tweak him for casual where he needs to be able to rely more on himself, he will be OP in ranked again.

This leaves us with a few possibilities:
Tweak him for casual and make him banable in ranked.
Tweak him for ranked and have a weaker merc in casual.
Or start to have 2 versions of some mercs. One for ranked and one for casual.


(Eox) #97

Or just bring back conc cooking.

Thunder would be much more bearable if his conc can actually be predicted and if he can’t use it mid fight.


(Szakalot) #98

[quote=“Eox;c-226318”]Or just bring back conc cooking.

Thunder would be much more bearable if his conc can actually be predicted and if he can’t use it mid fight.[/quote]

totally agree. We used to have conc. cooking and it was fine (though 1 sec too short, compared to Fragger), with the only exception of the bug that made people fully flashed regardless of distance: thunder would just cook and throw it in the air, blinding everyone on the enemy team in the entire area.

Cooking at the same length as Fragger’s nade will make thunder nicely balanced across all skill levels.


(Dawnlazy) #99

[quote=“bgyoshi;c-226301”]
One day, you might put two and two together in your own argument and realize what I’m talking about. Until then, I don’t know how to explain it any more clearly than I already have. we can’t get anywhere if you refuse to comprehend anything I’m saying.[/quote]

Let me break it down as much as possible:

  1. You can only balance gameplay for competitive play, because it’s the only environment in which matches in the same skill level happen consistently.

  2. By achieving gameplay balance at a competitive level, the few and far between instances of pub matches in which there is skill balance will benefit from also having balanced gameplay.

  3. It is pointless to attempt any form of gameplay balance for non-competitive matches because they are seldom balanced in terms of skill and as such a bad player can fail with Thunder and a good player can dominate with Proxy even though Thunder is brokenly OP and Proxy is garbage. You simply cannot have a sizeable sample of matches from which to observe clear gameplay patterns and tell what is overpowered and what is underpowered, because people in pubs have no incentive to play as efficiently as possible within the boundaries of what the game gives them, they’ll just play what they feel like.


(pumpkinmeerkat) #100

Okay…

[quote=“bgyoshi;c-226308”]
Besides, if the Stark is your only gripe about Thunder, just switch to Kira or Stoker like everyone else does, because their abilities actually work in pubs, which is why more players use them instead of Thunder.[/quote]
My gripe is that burst rifles are OP. They are especially OP when wielded by a merc with 170 HP and an ability that blinds and slows groups of players every 15 17 seconds. Not fun to play or play against.