Why is fragger the only merc that is overpowered by design ?

[poiuasd]

I think the grenade is in a decent spot now since you can’t just delete spawnwaves with it anymore.

[montheponies]

The nade has already been nerfed three times in recent patches;

• slower velocity
• reduction from two to one nade in the bank
• reduction in explosive range/power

Not convinced that it needs a slower cook time as well, given it’s currently at what 2s?

HP would eat into the tank mentality - and overall I’m not joining servers and seeing large clusters of Fraggers roaming around. Currently it’s more Fletchers that seem to be getting spammed with their instant sticky (how about putting a 2-3s delay on those)…

But all in all, the servers though have a good mix of mercs which I guess is the real test for how balanced a merc is - go back to brink and pretty much everyone by this stage was running a lightbody with a carb-9. I’m enjoying having stoker back, my original goto merc. Be nice if SD could show the stats of hours played per merc, along with the usual KPM/DPM stats.

[ragnak]

When they took away 1 of his nades they also lowered CD on it, and for me personally it was a buff since i kill more people with nades now.

Even with 10 less hp he would still have more then anyone that isnt rhino and i dont think that fragger should be considered a tank since his offensive power is the best in the game, its kinda strange that the “tank” would be the best killer as well.

Fletcher spam is annoying and quite strong, not going to deny, but he is hardly a problem when you use fragger with unshakeable (+ fletcher effective range is lower than fragger), at least thats what i take when i am annoyed with spam. If i didnt see 3 fraggers in one team constantly i wouldnt probably whine as much about it, consider yourself lucky.

Brink was a major failure on pretty much every aspect. It was unusable on most AMD cards, had horrible audio, every weapon was a lottery machine (thats exactly the reason why everyone used carb and lightbody, aside from the fact that maps were designed around lightbody mercs) and there is nothing i consider good in that game. lets just forget that brink ever existed, it still makes me mad that i spend any money on it.

[montheponies]

For me dropping the 2s CD on one nade, didn’t make a huge difference either way, other than clearing groups meant you can’t spam a room.

In the few hundred hours I’ve played I’ve only seen a fragger-fest once which was due to the free giveaway. Since then nothing, rarely have I been killed by nades, rarely have I consciously noticed playing with or against lots of fraggers. My basic test is if no-one else on the team has went fragger I’ll go it.

Perhaps I am lucky or alternatively you’re unlucky / just really sensitive to the nade/fragger?

[ragnak]

Its not even the nade that bothers me the most, its his sheer dueling power. He is good at every range and situation, you cant say the same about any other merc in the game, they always have something i can exploit. Fragger is simply dps check most of the time. You cant even destroy him with explosives since he run with ushakeable.

I do think that his whole kit was badly designed, but i dont expect that to change.

In any case, as long as he lose 10 hp i would probably be happy, might not seem like much but it might just be enough to put him in good spot without making him weak (then again i cant image fragger ever being weak).

[Szakalot]

lets wait for thunder, and balance those 2 together

[spookify]

Fragger is fine stop QQ’ing… Yes he is the go to killer merc that can possibly open up a defence but like people are saying Thunder is coming however he is no fragger. I have hope for other mercs that will be fragger like in the sence they can disrupt an enemy spawn or break a defense. Just wait until they come out!

Also lets not forget a lot of the talk around mercs is all dependent on map design including spawns, spawn times and objectives! Maps are the biggest issue with the game! Lets not forget that.

[Kendle]

I didn’t know Fragger was OP until I read these forums, I find Fletcher (can spam sticky mines like 'nades) and Nader (can spam 'nades like, er, 'nades) far more annoying, indeed at least Fragger mostly kills you with something he had to aim at you, there’s plenty mercs that don’t need to waste time with this aiming lark to bring you down.

[watsyurdeal]

Considering that his only ability is his grenade, and that he constantly needs support from his team with ammo, health and planting/defusing. I’d say he’s balanced.

He’s not like Sparks who can essentially do two roles, Medic and Sniper, and his grenade is no longer the push stopper it used to be. Plus the K 121 received plenty of nerfs as well. With the logic you getting at surely Sawbonez and Phoneix must be nerfed because they are such effective combat medics, but just because they are good at their job doesn’t mean they are unbalanced, they are working as intended. Whereas with Sparks I feel that is still heavily up for debate.

But yes, Fragger is an effective killing machine, but that’s all he’s got, he has to be effective because otherwise there would be nothing to break defensive holds. Which this game already has a huge problem with.

[ragnak]

The only mercs i ever had real problems with (balance wise) is fragger, aura, sparks and vassili (fletcher is kinda close, but at least he have limited range and fragger counter him nicely). I never considered sawbones/phoenix to be a problem, because i find them weak combat wise (sure, people can argue but i honestly never had a problem with downing both of them).

Out of the mercs i had problems with only fragger and sparks left, but i dont hate on sparks because of her combat ability (because i consider her rather weak combat wise and even if you can own with her you would own even harder with most mercs) but her revive gun is bull****. It limits the way you play, since you cant decide if you are going to gib or not, you either gib instantly or they get revived, no ifs or buts.

I simply see no reason to take any other merc over fragger if its combat related, unless its for specific situation and in my opinion strong aoe merc should never be the best at dueling. I also dont think that -10hp would break him. As for k121, a lot of the nerfs were reverted so its honestly a really strong gun now, also i have more problem with his m4 unshakeable loadout, it was a major mistake to give fragger unshakeable =/.

In any case i can agree that fragger might be a bit stronger because of how maps are designed but i honestly cant see SD remaking 5 maps and even if they did, he could always be rebuffed in case he turned out to be a bit weak.

People might disagree with me, thats fine, but i also dont plan on changing my mind either, so lets agree to disagree.

[watsyurdeal]

[QUOTE=ragnak;541069]
I simply see no reason to take any other merc over fragger if its combat related, unless its for specific situation and in my opinion strong aoe merc should never be the best at dueling. I also dont think that -10hp would break him. As for k121, a lot of the nerfs were reverted so its honestly a really strong gun now, also i have more problem with his m4 unshakeable loadout, it was a major mistake to give fragger unshakeable =/.

In any case i can agree that fragger might be a bit stronger because of how maps are designed but i honestly cant see SD remaking 5 maps and even if they did, he could always be rebuffed in case he turned out to be a bit weak.

People might disagree with me, thats fine, but i also dont plan on changing my mind either, so lets agree to disagree.[/QUOTE]

BAM

You just nailed it,Combat, that’s what Fragger does and that’s his job but it doesn’t mean he’s overpowered.

You nerf him too much and you do not have a strong enough force to deal good consistent damage against people. You could even argue that without him being where he is people would just play Medic, since there’s literally no reason to play Engineer, Assault, Recon, or Support. They can’t keep a train of people alive to overwhelm the opposition.

[ragnak]

Problem is, that i rather use fragger over nader/skyhammer/rhino/phantom/redeye/stoker/kira/arty and any other combat based merc for 90% of situations (not sure about vassili since his nerfs) Sometimes you will ltake skyhammer to deal with chokepoint/ev or nader for clearing/protecting something but overall you cant go wrong with fragger, ever. He is also good at every range and situation, cant be said about any other combat merc.

I simply belive he shouldnt be as tanky as he is (unshakeable just adds to the problem), for the power he have. DB have design problems and fragger is a band aid for some of them but i dont think its a good way to go.

[Szakalot]

[QUOTE=ragnak;541072]Problem is, that i rather use fragger over nader/skyhammer/rhino/phantom/redeye/stoker/kira/arty and any other combat based merc for 90% of situations (not sure about vassili since his nerfs) Sometimes you will ltake skyhammer to deal with chokepoint/ev or nader for clearing/protecting something but overall you cant go wrong with fragger, ever. He is also good at every range and situation, cant be said about any other combat merc.

I simply belive he shouldnt be as tanky as he is (unshakeable just adds to the problem), for the power he have. DB have design problems and fragger is a band aid for some of them but i dont think its a good way to go.[/QUOTE]

the more i think about it the more i like 140hp, especially if thunder is similar to pre-release - not as good nades but a bit more tanky (160)

edit: also as you said, combat-skill is always the most important one. If you can kill all the opponents, it doesnt matter that they can give themselves ammo/hp between fights.

[watsyurdeal]

[QUOTE=ragnak;541072]Problem is, that i rather use fragger over nader/skyhammer/rhino/phantom/redeye/stoker/kira/arty and any other combat based merc for 90% of situations (not sure about vassili since his nerfs) Sometimes you will ltake skyhammer to deal with chokepoint/ev or nader for clearing/protecting something but overall you cant go wrong with fragger, ever. He is also good at every range and situation, cant be said about any other combat merc.

I simply belive he shouldnt be as tanky as he is (unshakeable just adds to the problem), for the power he have. DB have design problems and fragger is a band aid for some of them but i dont think its a good way to go.[/QUOTE]

No, you don’t understand, Fragger’s job IS just that

Here’s a list of what he can do

[ul]
[li]Tank more damage than most of the mercs, only beat by Thunder, Rhino, and Phantom (armor).[/li][li]Dish out more damage than anyone else due to his k 121 and M4[/li][li]Create an opening for a push or decimate one with a well placed nade and some cleanup.[/li][/ul]

And here’s what he can’t do

[ul]
[li]Heal others or himself in a tight situation[/li][li]Revive people quickly[/li][li]Plant/defuse/repair quickly[/li][li]Plant traps, unless it’s very well timed[/li][li]Area denial, others do it way better with their abilities. [/li][li]Bombing, Nader is way better at that[/li][li]Complete lockdown of a choke. Rhino does that better with proper support.[/li][li]Long range, period, Vasilli and Sparks beat him at that easily.[/li][li]He also can’t go off on his own and do work, he may get a couple kills but he’s very rarely going to be able to take on more than 2 at a time.[/li][/ul]

Fragger is the best dueling class no doubt, but that doesn’t mean he’s overpowered at all, if anything I’d say the maps are the problem. Dome is honestly the only map I can say offers room for every merc to succeed and do a lot of work.

[ragnak]

Like i said i dont see SD remaking maps any time soon, so thats a moot point. As it stands you can sacrifice fire supports and engineers for a fragger, the only thing you really need is a medic.

I get what you are trying to say but i simply think that fragger is way ahead and it bothers me, other assault mercs that are only based around killing doesnt offer much over fragger aside from some specific situations. He is also harder to counter when overused on pub servers, you can take vassili and hope for the best, since he counters everything else.

In the end its SD that makes a decision and thats mostly when echo overlord says so, you shouldnt probably by worried about fragger for now :).