Thoughts on Dirty bombs Spawn system

(Bitey) #21

Here is a small video I made up which breaks down the entire “Complexity” of the Dystopian Spawn timer :smiley:

//youtu.be/wXVfh2Qbcpw

This video was approved by SD :slight_smile:

But please don’t share the link >8(

(Hundopercent) #22

That will be nice, but keep in mind we still have issues with the current spawn system, including the SW design. It’s not much different than Obj since you can hold out spawning and desync with your team.

(attack) #23

when can we test the new camden?

(S0und_) #24
  • new gui

On the spawn system topic, personaly i prefer the way they it worked in ET. 20/30, and you could check the spawntime for the Axis, exp: 14 / 44, and time your attack accordingly to that. Also you could easily spawncamp, which sounds bad, but it’s not that bad, if one of your teammate defends your “spawning”. But the “spawncamp” aspect gaved a “lot of depht” to Fieldops (well timed, positioned airstrikes) / Engineers (mines, nades).

(Mustang) #25

I don’t like the idea of two overlapping spawn waves (TF2) because if my whole team gets wiped with half in the first wave and half in the second wave then I’d rather the guys in the first wave would just spawn at the same time as the second wave.

The single wave with time added on death (Dystopia) solves this by having a kind of minimum spawn time, so deaths are punished and the other team has time to recover before the the next spawn, but keeps everyone spawning together. It also has a nice benefit that if only one or two guys die then they can get back into the action a lot quicker if they’re lucky. Now my problem with the Dystopia model is that is removes the so called tactical-tapout that many RTCW/W:ET/ETQW(/Brink?) fans hold dear. Call it nostalgia, not moving with the times or whatever, but it’s kind of expected to be a part of the XT comp scene.

So what would people think about a system that is identical to the normal proper spawnwaves that has been requested for a while, except that is you’re killed by friend or foe then it adds ~3-5 seconds to the teams spawntimer, however if you tapout(/selfkill) without having received and damage in the last ~3-5 seconds then it doesn’t add any time to the spawntimer.

(Bitey) #26

Oooh. So when you gib a person it adds to the spawn timer. That sounds really interesting.

-from phone

(Grissi) #27

There are a few really interesting points in this thread and it shows there are many ways to approach this issue. The most important part is that players are actually punishes for dieing (not spawning withing 5 seconds). Another thing I would say is that the life of the player should be valuable enough that you would never want to type kill in console, it should not be giving a team advantages. A game about tactics should be how effective you use each life you get and reward you for staying alive.

(Protekt1) #28

Everyone seemed to fight me tooth and nail about giving selfkill a penalty like this. BTW you are aware that hitting K is self kill… no need for console.

(Protekt1) #29

[QUOTE=Bitey;467867]Oooh. So when you gib a person it adds to the spawn timer. That sounds really interesting.

-from phone[/QUOTE]

Firefall has something like that but it is far more risky since you have to stand over their corpse and perform a 2 second execution animation. But the benefit is that you add 10 seconds to the enemy’s personal spawn timer.

If they had something like this in firefall that added to a team timer, but less than 10 seconds, that’d be pretty cool. Doesn’t have to take 2 seconds though… maybe 1. This would be like an “advanced” gib. You could still gib normally but you don’t get the spawn timer benefit.

(Kendle) #30

And rightly so. By tapping /kill you’re already punishing yourself. You’re removing yourself from the battlefield and handing your opponent the advantage of your absence. What you gain in return is the ability to re-spawn with your team-mates. You’ve made a tactical choice, one that is a very important, and a well tried and accepted, part of competitive objective mode gameplay.

By punishing someone for /kill (by imposing a time penalty or whatever) you simply lessen a tactical element of the game, and all for what? So as not to offend someone who doesn’t think you should be allowed to do it? The game itself certainly gains nothing from imposing a penalty.

(Mustang) #31

Selfkill != Being killed
Selfkill = Choosing to respawn with teammates

(Grissi) #32

[QUOTE=Kendle;468027]And rightly so. By tapping /kill you’re already punishing yourself. You’re removing yourself from the battlefield and handing your opponent the advantage of your absence. What you gain in return is the ability to re-spawn with your team-mates. You’ve made a tactical choice, one that is a very important, and a well tried and accepted, part of competitive objective mode gameplay.

By punishing someone for /kill (by imposing a time penalty or whatever) you simply lessen a tactical element of the game, and all for what? So as not to offend someone who doesn’t think you should be allowed to do it? The game itself certainly gains nothing from imposing a penalty.[/QUOTE]

If you know the spawntimer I would call /kill the easy way out, not much tactical thinking there. Basically if the battle went bad you can simply restart your postition by typing /kill and respawn with the next wave. Imo it would be much more tactical for the player having to fall back and regroup with his teammates without the use of the /kill command, this leaves him vulnerable to the oppoments if he didn’t postition himself accordingly giving them a chance to punish.

(Kendle) #33

Well as long as you don’t play competitively you can keep that opinion :slight_smile: (no offence intended)

As for organised league / clan gaming I very much doubt you’d find even a single player who’d agree with that position. Being able to /kill without penalty to re-group is something you’ve been able to do in all previous titles going back to the grand-daddy of objective gaming, RTCW, in 2001.

There simply is no compelling case for adding a penalty other than the fact some people think it’s cheap and don’t like it. Adding a penalty would not improve the game one iota.

(ImageOmega) #34

Choosing between staying and fighting or killing yourself to respawn with the team is a tactical decision. Regardless of opinion it is a decision that could hurt or benefit the team in a case by case scenario. No need for hypotheticals of which is more intelligent.

The worst problem is that the game doesn’t punish you for dying as it currently is because the spawn timer is so low. People aren’t afraid charge and die.

(Grissi) #35

My point was its not a very complex decision, its fairly obvius in most scenarios after you get used to the game and its much easier than the alternative. Even though one game made /kill be a very good decision does not mean this one has to do the same. If we want the game to be as deep as possible what do you think is more skillful to do, when the situation goes bad simply press the /kill key or making sure you have a escape route to have a chance to regroup with your team mates? Lets only follow arguments and facts and ignore all nostalgia from them.

But I agree the numer one problem with the spawn system is its both abusable and the punishment for dying is quite low. But I think this thread has covered that pretty well.

(DarkangelUK) #36

[QUOTE=ImageOmega;468117]
The worst problem is that the game doesn’t punish you for dying as it currently is because the spawn timer is so low. People aren’t afraid charge and die.[/QUOTE]

Even worse is the fact that you can’t miss a spawn either. At least with RtCW if you miss-timed the the tapout you could miss the spawn completely and have to pay the price, it should be that way always.

(Hundopercent) #37

That Dystopia approach doesn`t sound too bad, it is worth trying at least. Just to make sure I understand.

You are gibbed - Spawn wave starts at 10 seconds.
2 of your teammates are gibbed - Spawn time is increased by x seconds per gib.
Everyone spawns at the same time (<— most important thing atm.)

/kill would be a 3 - 10 second penalty (in this scenario.) That doesn’t sound too bad and may be a healthy compromise.

Edit: Numbers would need to be tweaked to work with the maps/speed of the game.

(Grissi) #38

Yep, I could see Dystopia spawn work if it would only activate ater players are gibbed. The main issue would be that the public spawn time would have to work a little bit differently. New players won’t realise that they actually have to tap out before they would respawn. But having different spawn systems between public and competitive is easier to adjust than having the same for both.

If there was a solution to keep both the same that would defenitly be optimal.

(Hundopercent) #39

Could always add a 30 second timer before you “bleed out” and tap out.

(Humate) #40

My point was its not a very complex decision, its fairly obvius in most scenarios after you get used to the game and its much easier than the alternative

None of the tactical decisions players can make in the game currently are in any way complex.
Flanking, bait and switch, counters, class composition, formation - all simple stuff.
And yes even maximising one’s time in-game is also pretty simple. So what? :slight_smile: