The Primary Issue With Phantom


(XSheepieX) #21

I have no idea. My hope is that they will actually do something interesting for Phantom and to displace the influx of people suddenly trying to play Phantom they will do the changes at the same time as hunter’s tying them together somehow.

I just worry that they will give Phantom some cheap deployable spotting ability and leave it at that. I’m a little peeved we don’t get to test it before the changes to Phantom happen. As someone who almost exclusively played Phantom I would have liked to test and give feedback before the changes go live.

Maybe they’ll give him poison or dehabilitating darts or something. Im dying for throwing knives but I’d take anything that assists his offensive capabilities. I honestly feel like SD was badly scolded enough after Phantom’s release that they won’t try anything outside the box or Innovative whilst maintaining Phantom’s current playstyle for fear of the player reaction.


(c4Te) #22

I have posted some details on reddit. We will share more in the upcoming weeks.

  • Phantom`s Cloak and EMP are not separated but the EMP can be triggered manually
  • Phantom`s EMP will change from a constant aura to an EMP Pulse
  • Disabled deployable are highlighted for team mates.

(spectre_nc) #23

@c4Te said:
I have posted some details on reddit. We will share more in the upcoming weeks.

  • Phantom`s Cloak and EMP are not separated but the EMP can be triggered manually
  • Phantom`s EMP will change from a constant aura to an EMP Pulse
  • Disabled deployable are highlighted for team mates.

Haha! Told ya! (on the pulse bit)

just kidding

I like the sound of this. This feels right. This feels reeeeal right. +1 if you guess the quote


(JJMAJR) #24

emp pulse that spots too plz

:wink:


(GatoCommodore) #25

@JJMAJR said:
emp pulse that spots too plz

:wink:

it spots deployables.


(JJMAJR) #26

spots people plz
not abilities


(XSheepieX) #27

I hope they have more changes to show us. Though I hope they don’t butcher his current playstyle.

I mean… I never saw the EMP as the major issue.


(Sorotia) #28

@XSheepieX said:
I hope they have more changes to show us. Though I hope they don’t butcher his current playstyle.

I mean… I never saw the EMP as the major issue.

It is a problem…makes it hard to sneak around sometimes if the enemy has a lot of deployables around.


(c4Te) #29

@XSheepieX said:
I hope they have more changes to show us. Though I hope they don’t butcher his current playstyle.

I mean… I never saw the EMP as the major issue.

It is really important for us to make sure that current Phantom players still enjoy playing him. The reason why we do want to rework him is that we want to move him slightly into a more team orientated assassin that is hard to spot, not frustrating to play against and has high gameplay impact.

If you are interested in more details regarding the “Why” I might be able to share some statistics and comments together with detailed thoughts on why we do the changes.


(woodchip) #30

I’m sure everyone in this thread is interested. Would be fascinating to see that data and interpretation, sincerely.


(Guziol) #31

Well i did buy the obsidian skin in hopes that he will be made usefull someday.


(JJMAJR) #32

What if low-health players (% wise) can’t see Phantom when cloaked?


(Xenithos) #33

@c4Te said:

@XSheepieX said:
I hope they have more changes to show us. Though I hope they don’t butcher his current playstyle.

I mean… I never saw the EMP as the major issue.

If you are interested in more details regarding the “Why” I might be able to share some statistics and comments together with detailed thoughts on why we do the changes.

MOAR DETAILS WHY POR FAVOR


(Drac0rion) #34

@c4Te said:
I have posted some details on reddit. We will share more in the upcoming weeks.

  • Phantom`s Cloak and EMP are not separated but the EMP can be triggered manually
  • Phantom`s EMP will change from a constant aura to an EMP Pulse
  • Disabled deployable are highlighted for team mates.

This will not be enough. This will barely have any impact to change Phantom.
Playstyle will remain the same, team coordination will remain about the same.
If deployables don’t each get their own icon highlight then it barely matters. For team play it’s nice, for solo players they still have to call out where Fragger will have to nade when the EMP pops and everyone rushes in since Fragger won’t have a clue which highlighted deployable is the health station, which is usually the most surrounded deployable. If Fragger won’t be able to throw a blind nade, it won’t matter.

The point that Cloak and EMP are still linked proves that SD has wrong focus with Phantom imo.
He will still have to put himself in same danger, just in slightly different conditions if the cloak visibility and sound don’t get adjusted along with the rework.

What’s the role that SD intends for Phantom? " Team orientated assassin that is hard to spot, not frustrating to play against and has high gameplay impact."
What the hell is a team oriented assassin supposed to do with a poopy cloak and gimmick of an EMP?
Both the cloak and the EMP can already have high gameplay impact.
If there’s a Phantom on the enemy team with good movement, the cloak can have quite a lot of map pressure, as there’s always the possibility of Phantom being behind you, until he appears in front of you or in the kill feed.
While the sniper recons look for a safe position to pick off kills, Phantom looks for a safe flank to pick off single targets. Even worse is when that Phantom hits you from the back while his team comes rushing from the front.
The EMP as an aura or pulse serves a complete different purpose. Instead of doing your own thing, being limited by short range, EMP forces Phantom to put himself right in the middle of things and have him fully commit to the fights with no real cover or escape.
While it’s great that there’s more than just one way to play Phantom, the EMP aspect has been extremely poorly added on to his kit. His kit as a whole simply has too bad synergy and too little value to be worthy of being picked over something with more firepower.

Also to consider offense vs defense as Phantom.
The current cloak heavily favors defense, since you’ll only have to find great chokepoints for ambush and wait for the enemy players to run into you.
EMP on the other hands is far more usable on offense because the enemy defense will select an area where they set up their defenses and pile up their deployables.

And before even trying any playstyle with Phantom you have to take into account that he has more counterplay than any other merc. In addition that his own abilities give him away with noise, the amount of visibility and EMP effect, he’s also hard countered by all the other current recons. Yes, the noise is a much needed counterplay ability, but if reworked well, Phantom shouldn’t require more counterplay mechanics than only that.

I understand that those aren’t all of the upcoming changes for Phantom, but if SD is afraid to actually rework Phantom then he’ll just remain a meme of a merc forever.

Phantom isn’t necessarily useless, but considering the effort-reward ratio, every single merc in the game has more value than Phantom. Unless Dirty Bomb requires hard counters, Phantom will NEVER be actually useful. Either that or until he gets a decent rework. Depending on how Guardian abilities and stats get adjusted, she might share the same fate sooner or later considering the role she currently fills.

I’m sorry but I barely have any faith in something as such “dev experience”.
I mean, look at what dev experience got for games like Battleborn and Brink.

After 2.5 years, maybe put some actual effort into making something out of Phantom?


(XSheepieX) #35

In all honesty I have to say I agree with @Drac0rion . I want to have faith in these changes but I don’t think it’ll help the key issues much. I hope there are more changes but it doesn’t look like it. Phantom isn’t a very good assassin and it’s unreasonably difficult to get consistant kills with him when compared to other Recons. If I want to win a game and if I was equally good at either, I would never choose Phantom over Vasili or Aimee or Redeye.

THAT, for me is what has always needed to be fixed with him. He could do with some nice team-oreinted changes, but the fundamental issue has always been the combat effectiveness. Phantom has a lot of counterplay and he’s in a good place atm where good players can be somewhat efficient with him, but he’s hard enough that he isn’t a general choice in lower level play because he’s difficult to play and easy to spot if you don’t know how to play him.

If Phantom is just going to become a glorified walking EMP with a deployable spotting ability, I guess there isn’t that much for me and probably a lot of other Phantom players to be excited for. Nobody ever asked for the EMP ability so it doesn’t make sense to focus completely on it to me.

I mean… Vasili can spot people through walls AND kill them in one shot once they emerge, without even being close to them.

We’ll see but I won’t get my hopes up.


(bgyoshi) #36

I still don’t understand why phantom can run and jump and wiggle and dance and get shot and stay invisible, but the moment he attacks OOPS CLOAKING DOESN’T OPERATE WHEN ATTACKING FOR NO REASON LOLOLOLOLOL

Just make him invisible. Like straight up… “John Cena unless you’re damaging me” invisible. Make sword attacks retain invisibility but gun attacks make him visible (but not uncloaked. Think current invisibility at full run). Maybe increase the cooldown a little and don’t let them cancel the cloak. Also remove the cloaking shield boost, and make the emp an E ability with its own cooldown.


([ *O.C.B.* ] Wildcard) #37

@bgyoshi said:
I still don’t understand why phantom can run and jump and wiggle and dance and get shot and stay invisible, but the moment he attacks OOPS CLOAKING DOESN’T OPERATE WHEN ATTACKING FOR NO REASON LOLOLOLOLOL

Just make him invisible. Like straight up… “John Cena unless you’re damaging me” invisible. Make sword attacks retain invisibility but gun attacks make him visible (but not uncloaked. Think current invisibility at full run). Maybe increase the cooldown a little and don’t let them cancel the cloak. Also remove the cloaking shield boost, and make the emp an E ability with its own cooldown.

You realize his cloak is more meant to operate like the cloak used by Predators from the movie of the same name. It’s in the name of the ability. His “Refractive Armor” camouflages him by refracting light similar to a chameleon. The fact that it is camouflage via refraction is the key point to take note of because it already makes it clear that invisibility is not the intent. It’s about as close as you get to it in a realistic sense but it is not the same thing. Considering they try to keep some semblance of the game rooted in reality going for pure invisibility like the TF2 Spy wouldn’t fit here.


(bgyoshi) #38

@-OCB-Wildcard said:

You realize his cloak is more meant to operate like the cloak used by Predators from the movie of the same name. It’s in the name of the ability. His “Refractive Armor” camouflages him by refracting light similar to a chameleon. The fact that it is camouflage via refraction is the key point to take note of because it already makes it clear that invisibility is not the intent. It’s about as close as you get to it in a realistic sense but it is not the same thing. Considering they try to keep some semblance of the game rooted in reality going for pure invisibility like the TF2 Spy wouldn’t fit here.

Yes I realize this, but realistic tech really isn’t the point of the game. Containing gamma radiation in general is just not viable and alpha/beta radiation is much more easily contained with concrete and metal. This is the core point of the game story, too. They aren’t going for full realism, it’s all about near-futuristic concepts.

I understand the initial intent but that doesn’t mean it can’t change. And why wouldn’t it fit? The class would perform a lot better and have more versatility this way. Unlike TF2 Spies, they would be “visible” when taking damage and when shooting weapons, there wouldn’t be a way to extend or shorten the invisibility (so you have to be smart with using it), and it wouldn’t “recharge” like cloaking in TF2.

It’s not such a far-fetched idea to believe such tech exists in the DB universe, considering a small metal ball can “detect” a heartbeat and then -perfectly- track a person with a visible marker. Or considering ammo can be delivered just by being “close” to a person (I still have no idea how that tech could even be considered FEASIBLY realistic in any way). Or that a person can personally guide a satellite laser beam around with no lag (seriously, how many geosynchronous orbiting satellites are centered over that specific spot in the world and wtf kind of power draw is required for something that powerful).


([ *O.C.B.* ] Wildcard) #39

@bgyoshi said:

@-OCB-Wildcard said:

You realize his cloak is more meant to operate like the cloak used by Predators from the movie of the same name. It’s in the name of the ability. His “Refractive Armor” camouflages him by refracting light similar to a chameleon. The fact that it is camouflage via refraction is the key point to take note of because it already makes it clear that invisibility is not the intent. It’s about as close as you get to it in a realistic sense but it is not the same thing. Considering they try to keep some semblance of the game rooted in reality going for pure invisibility like the TF2 Spy wouldn’t fit here.

Yes I realize this, but realistic tech really isn’t the point of the game. Containing gamma radiation in general is just not viable and alpha/beta radiation is much more easily contained with concrete and metal. This is the core point of the game story, too. They aren’t going for full realism, it’s all about near-futuristic concepts.

I understand the initial intent but that doesn’t mean it can’t change. And why wouldn’t it fit? The class would perform a lot better and have more versatility this way. Unlike TF2 Spies, they would be “visible” when taking damage and when shooting weapons, there wouldn’t be a way to extend or shorten the invisibility (so you have to be smart with using it), and it wouldn’t “recharge” like cloaking in TF2.

It’s not such a far-fetched idea to believe such tech exists in the DB universe, considering a small metal ball can “detect” a heartbeat and then -perfectly- track a person with a visible marker. Or considering ammo can be delivered just by being “close” to a person (I still have no idea how that tech could even be considered FEASIBLY realistic in any way). Or that a person can personally guide a satellite laser beam around with no lag (seriously, how many geosynchronous orbiting satellites are centered over that specific spot in the world and wtf kind of power draw is required for something that powerful).

@bgyoshi Well, it’s a fair point you’ve made, I know not all of it is rooted entirely in reality. Still with regards to “needing to be smart using it” you still technically do in its current state since it is an automatic minimum 8 sec cooldown on use. The kind of suggestion you’ve made could work but the balancing implications could easily become a mess. I’m not exactly opposed to it at this point so much as I wish this sort of suggestion was made before the EMP got added because now we’d be talking about another complete rework to get this working properly. Though personally, I feel the EMP is a bit of a misplaced ability on him to begin with but that’s just my opinion based on what they claim they intended him to be.

Ultimately, and let’s be honest, his role has always been exceptionally niche since his inception. SD can say whatever they want on what was intended but the results don’t match up. We’ve all mentioned to them that he has been in need of a massive rework for a long time and they just messed it up further. I don’t mean to be negative about it but after 3 years of watching them botch things like this up I kinda have a track record that suggests approaching this with a bit of cynicism.

TL;DR This is something I wouldn’t mind discussing at length, assuming we keep this civil, as I’m not entirely opposed to it. If you could elaborate a bit more though on the question of implementation and the associated implications that might clear up a few points. Though I do feel the need to point out that my only real objection is due to how quickly SD could mess this up in implementation.


(XSheepieX) #40

I feel like Phantom should either be able to attack as normal whilst cloaked but have the cloak flicker depending on the type of attack and the duration, or have some form of ability that he can use to attack whilst cloaked so that would also cause the cloak to flicker for counterplay, but to a lesser degree.

It’s like Phantom can’t attack out of cloak because of balancing, but he doesn’t have an invis so its not really the same. Maybe when his cloak was better it was more appropriate, but as it is, his cloak is an active camo cloak and it is common in games with cloaks to allow the user to attack whilst cloaked as the cloak isn’t a complete invis like what Sombra from OW has.

I also think a change that might be worth having for Phantom would be allowing a Phantom to decloak manually to reduce the noise of decloaking rather than shooting straight out of cloak. Though that probably wouldn’t help considering you can hear him before he decloaks.

I don’t think Phantom should be fully invis unless stationary as people got mad about it before and I think Phantom should remain difficult to play. He just needs to actually be good if you can play him.

Additionally, whereas invisibility is not the intent, this is definitely not apparent in the way that the ability work and in the cooldown for the ability and you often feel forced into high risk high reward situations that the cloak isn’t even supposed to be used for to make the most out of it. For example the ability has a cooldown that you would expect from a full invis ability. The restrictions to attacks and actions etc are what you would expect from a full invis ability. It seems a little unfair to make Phantom so vulnerable when using the cloak (in his inability to attack without giving himself away) considering his cloak isn’t even a full invis and can be heard/seen fairly easily by an experienced player.