The Forgotten Mercs

(c4Te) #21

@Mc1412013 said:

@c4Te said:

@Da_Mummy said:
How about giving Thunder his EMP back. Remove the stun and making the blinding stronger or at least more practical. You can literally throw it at someone’s face and still be killed by him instantly because he can technically still fight. Give the conc more of a team support role because as of right now it’s just outclassed by the Pinaple in every situation. Like why would you choose a grenade that only stuns enemys for a very short time and still have to kill them manually with your gun over a grenade that will do all the killing foryou and is even cookable and more reliable.

You are not that far away from what we thought about. An idea was to really put Thunder into the defensive tank direction by removing his grenade and give him some kind of an EMP deployable.

This would help defending choke points and it fits with having someone with a bomb defuse armour. It`s just an idea but we know that his current grenade is simply frustrating to play against and boring to play.

So of thunder has bomb defusing armor why not make him a c4 defusing specialist???

That could be a fun idea. If you have more ideas keep them coming. We will definitely check them. :slight_smile:

(Mc1412013) #22

@c4Te said:

@Mc1412013 said:

@c4Te said:

@Da_Mummy said:
How about giving Thunder his EMP back. Remove the stun and making the blinding stronger or at least more practical. You can literally throw it at someone’s face and still be killed by him instantly because he can technically still fight. Give the conc more of a team support role because as of right now it’s just outclassed by the Pinaple in every situation. Like why would you choose a grenade that only stuns enemys for a very short time and still have to kill them manually with your gun over a grenade that will do all the killing foryou and is even cookable and more reliable.

You are not that far away from what we thought about. An idea was to really put Thunder into the defensive tank direction by removing his grenade and give him some kind of an EMP deployable.

This would help defending choke points and it fits with having someone with a bomb defuse armour. It`s just an idea but we know that his current grenade is simply frustrating to play against and boring to play.

So of thunder has bomb defusing armor why not make him a c4 defusing specialist???

That could be a fun idea. If you have more ideas keep them coming. We will definitely check them. :slight_smile:

A c4 specailist but instead of plyers or blow torch he has actual bomb defusal tools like a swiss army knife

Only issue i have is if u take away his concusion granade what justifies calling him thunder

(Xenithos) #23

My guess is Either Redeye or Aimee are least played. They’re likely not as picked by beginners, and even during Redeye free rotation there weren’t as many clouds as I remember. It doesn’t help that Redeye cloud is just dumb as a skill.

Also, a good Aimee is the most frightening thing I’ve ever seen in DB. Be careful if you choose to balance her SD.

(Begin2018) #24

@c4Te said : and not frustrating to play against.
Javelin, Fantom and good Vassili/Aimee are very frustrating to play against!

(woodchip) #25

An idea for a Thunder redesign:

The ZEUS: a lightning gun weapon that chains to all enemy targets in an AoE of the initial target. An effective way to clear rooms with lots of enemies out of LoS or lots of deployables.
Could work like a chaining version of Quake lightning gun, or more like Sparks’ gun or anything in between.

Maybe it could have a slight cc component.

(hawkeyeguy99) #26

@c4Te said:

@Da_Mummy said:
How about giving Thunder his EMP back. Remove the stun and making the blinding stronger or at least more practical. You can literally throw it at someone’s face and still be killed by him instantly because he can technically still fight. Give the conc more of a team support role because as of right now it’s just outclassed by the Pinaple in every situation. Like why would you choose a grenade that only stuns enemys for a very short time and still have to kill them manually with your gun over a grenade that will do all the killing foryou and is even cookable and more reliable.

You are not that far away from what we thought about. An idea was to really put Thunder into the defensive tank direction by removing his grenade and give him some kind of an EMP deployable.

This would help defending choke points and it fits with having someone with a bomb defuse armour. It`s just an idea but we know that his current grenade is simply frustrating to play against and boring to play.

Ok so running with the defensive tank idea. I like the idea of an EMP deployable but unfortunately, it’s kinda useless because we already have Guardian who does close enough to the same thing (as defense) and is more effective at protecting. To make him a defensive tank I’d suggest a total rework to give him two abilities:

  1. Armor Packs - gives teammates a small amount of extra HP, say about 20. This HP would be non recoverable once depleted so it can’t be gained back by health stations or med packs.
  2. Deployable Accelerator - sticking with the “thunder” theme, an AOE deployable that supercharges friendly deployables within it’s range with extra power for a limited time. Healing stations give more health, ammo stations give more ammo, Turtle’s shield has higher health, Guardian’s sky-shield lasts longer, Bushwhacker’s turret does more damage, etc.

These two things would help define the meta more in defense as currently the game is highly focused on offense ability and less on defense. The best defense really is a good offense in this game. A Thunder re-work on these lines would place him fairly strongly in the meta and re-move the entirety of what makes him frustrating to play against currently.

(Mr-Penguin) #27

@hawkeyeguy99 said:

Ok so running with the defensive tank idea. I like the idea of an EMP deployable but unfortunately, it’s kinda useless because we already have Guardian who does close enough to the same thing (as defense) and is more effective at protecting. To make him a defensive tank I’d suggest a total rework to give him two abilities:

  1. Armor Packs - gives teammates a small amount of extra HP, say about 20. This HP would be non recoverable once depleted so it can’t be gained back by health stations or med packs.
  2. Deployable Accelerator - sticking with the “thunder” theme, an AOE deployable that supercharges friendly deployables within it’s range with extra power for a limited time. Healing stations give more health, ammo stations give more ammo, Turtle’s shield has higher health, Guardian’s sky-shield lasts longer, Bushwhacker’s turret does more damage, etc.

These two things would help define the meta more in defense as currently the game is highly focused on offense ability and less on defense. The best defense really is a good offense in this game. A Thunder re-work on these lines would place him fairly strongly in the meta and re-move the entirety of what makes him frustrating to play against currently.

Time for my usual rant about armor packs, “temporary” HP increasing abilities, HP/movespeed ratio screwups andhitbox size screwups.

I personally don’t believe that you can have any “throw and forget” type armor abilities without a large drawback- reduction in movement speed. Adding 20 HP over a merc’s usual HP gives them a large advantage in a 1v1 gunfight with a merc that has the same base HP. If the armored merc retains their usual movespeed, that increases the advantage even further (I’m not even gonna mention hitbox size/HP at this point).

Perhaps I’m overexaggerating the importance of 20 extra HP (or maybe it’s my time in the Merc Suggestions section that drove me crazy…), but armor abilities should have a downside of movement speed reduction to be balanced. That doesn’t solve the hitbox issue, but at least it fixes the movespeed/HP ratio problem.

Deployable Accelerator seems pretty situational to me. All other abilities in the game function by themselves pretty well, but this depends entirely upon other deployables to function at all*. Seems useful enough when your team has deployables though.

*I suppose you could say the same with the Skyshield and air support, but there are a lot more mercs with projectiles and fire support than there are with deployables.

(woodchip) #28

Please consider redesigning Redeye before you buff him. He is pretty anti-fun even if played correctly and his ability can also be uniquely frustrating for his allies if played wrong.

(Da_Mummy) #29

@c4Te said:
You are not that far away from what we thought about. An idea was to really put Thunder into the defensive tank direction by removing his grenade and give him some kind of an EMP deployable.

This would help defending choke points and it fits with having someone with a bomb defuse armour. It`s just an idea but we know that his current grenade is simply frustrating to play against and boring to play.

Alright so I thought about it once again.
Th name Thunder was mainly funny because his Grenade acted as the lighting and the sound of his gun as the Thunder and since I love those names most mercs have in relation to their ability I took some inspiration from good old Rainbow Six.
Everybody who is familiar with the German Soldier Blitz might know what I am going for but for those who don’t: Blitz wields a Shield that has three rows of flashbang lights but instead of a shield I though about his little flashlight on his head or his armor in general.
The most frustrating thing about Thunders Grenade was that it was unavoidable unpredictable and very wonky to play so most Thunder players just used it as a tool to make people mad without accomplishing anything.
Concept: Lighting armour -> an armor that will emit a strong EMP flash that will blind enemies nearby and disable all deployables in an AoE style BUT with a little audible charge that will force enemies to look away from Thunder or go get cover. The audio sign will give players a chance to react and in my experience at least AoEs are easier to predict and a tiny circle on the ground would make it also more calculatable.
Just throwing this out as an idea.

(spectre_nc) #30

I like playing Thunder. I like chucking the flash and immediately run in and exploit the sheer firepower of the 85 rounds machine gun gunning down the stunned enemies pretending to be a water hose extinguishing fire. Best if coupled with a competent Phoenix, it’s so damn fun and rewarding. Thunder with Stark is counterproductive and the AK doesn’t fit the balls to the wall approach that Thunder encourages.
If Thunder is frustrating to play against and boring to play then what about Fragger?
Thunder is not as competitive as him, that’s the general consensous and I get it. But I don’t think that any current assault merc can dethrone Fragger just as no medic can dethrone Sawbonez for being the best pocket.

It seems to me that the competitive scene is pretty Fragger-centric, but I don’t play competitive so I can’t say for sure.

Aimee is similar to Thunder: compared to Vassili she has little HP and the way the SNITCH works mean that classical sniping isn’t her thing. She is closer range oriented but again 90 HP and Grandeur/PDP + pistols in a evenly skilled 1v1 against an automatic rifle/SMG equals losing it.
So SNITCH must be used thoughtfully to even out the odds and still requires support from the team.

Basically both of these mercs can’t single-pick as effectively as their cousins, have harder to use gadgets and have generally a harder time in a 1v1 (Thunder due to hitbox size and Aimee for secondaries and HP).

Redeye is strong. Misunderstood maybe, but strong.

Just my 2 cents.

(c4Te) #31

@spectre_nc said:
Redeye is strong. Misunderstood maybe, but strong.

I love that. He really is misunderstood because Redeye is quite strong. The problem with him is that he is simply not fun to play for a lot of people and what is worse frustrating to play against.

That`s why we are looking into it and try to figure out how we solve this issue without sacrificing his identity. I will definitely share more information once we have a better idea of what he should be.

(Da_Mummy) #32

@c4Te
That might just be his weapon selection, because those are everything but beginner friendly. And you can’t kill people with his ability so a lot of people call him boring just because not everybody can be a fragger in this game.

(c4Te) #33

@Da_Mummy said:
@c4Te
That might just be his weapon selection, because those are everything but beginner friendly. And you can’t kill people with his ability so a lot of people call him boring just because not everybody can be a fragger in this game.

I think it is a combination of everything. The abilities, the weapons and the general playstyle. Like with Phantom we do not want him to lose his identity but rather improve his weak areas.

(zykeroth) #34

I’m pretty sure the smoke isn’t as useless as you make it to be; it actually allows you to effectively take over an area by merely cutting LoS off- the way I play it is to chuck it in places where it’s a lot more inconvenient for the enemy than my team, and if they dare go through they’re mostly dead. Examples for this are like Trainyard’s 1st OBJ on Atk Generator side. Throw it in the direction of the Def spawn-> profit. Line of sight cut off, relative safety to plant if not alone.

(Da_Mummy) #35

@zykeroth
It just doesn’t kill people what makes him boring for the average FPS idiot with an IQ of a slice of toast. But for anybody who does happen to use his human gifted brain it’s a practical teamcover and a one way mirror in the offense.
However a lot of players are frustrated by this ability because it takes away the most important factor of Combat: vision
In a game where you mostly rely on red and blue outlines and a dot on the screen that’s really important. But I just don’t see the issue where people go raging about how brokenly overpowered a little cloud of dust is.
You can spot him, disperse offer his smoke, push him, block his sightline with a shield or just avoid open sniper territory like with every other long ranged assassin. I just don’t get it why people still cry about home beeing too strong, but then again there are people playing this game and complain about Pay 2 Win sooo… I shouldn’t be suprised.

(GatoCommodore) #36

@Da_Mummy said:
@zykeroth
It just doesn’t kill people what makes him boring for the average FPS idiot with an IQ of a slice of toast. But for anybody who does happen to use his human gifted brain it’s a practical teamcover and a one way mirror in the offense.
However a lot of players are frustrated by this ability because it takes away the most important factor of Combat: vision
In a game where you mostly rely on red and blue outlines and a dot on the screen that’s really important. But I just don’t see the issue where people go raging about how brokenly overpowered a little cloud of dust is.
You can spot him, disperse offer his smoke, push him, block his sightline with a shield or just avoid open sniper territory like with every other long ranged assassin. I just don’t get it why people still cry about home beeing too strong, but then again there are people playing this game and complain about Pay 2 Win sooo… I shouldn’t be suprised.

red eye ability is, in my opinion, the ability that has many utilities

what people dont know about the smoke is how it can be dispersed with explosive like stoker molotov.

its an easy to counter ability if you dont get shot by red eye first or if you have something like arty (red eye cant see the arty marker while using IR), Nader, Fletcher, Fragger

(Da_Mummy) #37

@GatoCommodore
Ahm… how about the fact that the smoke extinguishes the fire like it should logically.
But I agree on the rest

(GatoCommodore) #38

@Da_Mummy said:
@GatoCommodore
Ahm… how about the fact that the smoke extinguishes the fire like it should logically.
But I agree on the rest

its a smoke “Bomb”, not canister ones like the police used

its something like the modern tanks use.

the fact that Bombs carry HE means it can disperse flame

typically high explosives, such as dynamite, are used to create a shockwave that pushes the burning fuel and local atmospheric oxygen away from source of fire. (This is a similar principle to blowing out a candle.)

its pretty realistic

but if you throw the molotov after he already thrown the smoke, well, he would still gets fried

(woodchip) #39

@c4Te said:

@spectre_nc said:
Redeye is strong. Misunderstood maybe, but strong.

I love that. He really is misunderstood because Redeye is quite strong. The problem with him is that he is simply not fun to play for a lot of people and what is worse frustrating to play against.

That`s why we are looking into it and try to figure out how we solve this issue without sacrificing his identity. I will definitely share more information once we have a better idea of what he should be.

Maybe remove his smoke grenade entirely and buff his ‘redeye’ to have a mild version of the Widowmaker Ult effect (like maybe he sees 5 feet behind walls, so he could see you behind corners but not provide global map vision).

Widowmakers ult sort of effects would preserve him as a powerful anti-sniper, would be extremely thematic, and seems less obnoxious than his smoke.

I can’t see a way to make his current concept work. Getting sniped behind any sort of invulnerability/safety effect is just too unfun. And both his smoke and his redeye are unfun to use except as a part of the combo (the red eye by itself isn’t really worth turning on).

(Da_Mummy) #40

@spectre_nc said:

I can’t see a way to make his current concept work. Getting sniped behind any sort of invulnerability/safety effect is just too unfun.

Again what makes Redeye invulnerable behind his smoke. It’s not like he’s turns invisible or has a shield, you just can’t see him directly.
And removing his smoke would just make him even more similar to vasilli just with the worse arsenal for long range combat (still he isn’t a sniper).