the current state of the spread system

(INF3RN0) #61

[QUOTE=Rex;483087]While we are at inaccurate things:

  • Horizontal recoil is nonsense, you can’t correct your aim in 3 directions randomly at the same time![/QUOTE]

It’s such a minor amount imo that you definitely can do more than just let your crosshair go haywire. How else do you explain people getting much higher accuracy if it’s completely out of control? Not that I like it a lot, but I do think that saying it’s impossible to correct is just not true. I will say that most people testing have never played games for very long that require extensive weapon handling, and are bothered by even the slightest amount of Y axis recoil it seems.

(Rex) #62

I’ve played long enough to say that it bothers me. It’s just another unnecessary factor which harms the tracking based aim.

(Protekt1) #63

Horizontal recoil imo is a good thing. I’m okay with that. Having only vertical recoil is kinda boring, easy to master, etc. My only concern is that recoil may have too many patterns for gameplay this fast. Gotta test more to conclude one way or the other.

(Rex) #64

Gratz! You are the first one in this forum who actually likes it.

(shaftz0r) #65

it’s just… random as ****. i dont know. i severely dislike ARs now. i have no issue with any other weapon in the game

(INF3RN0) #66

I just go by what I see, and I’ve found certain players to be much more proficient with weapons I have trouble using or that not many people use (probably for the same reasons). As long as someone is able to wreck with a certain weapon type, then I put it on myself to improve at it. It’s the same kind of thing as when people say X merc is the best or X merc is crap, yet I see exceptions to the claim. In xT I get this feeling that everything is pretty equal, but some weapons/mercs are much harder to master or involve a very different style of play. Either way I have a hard time making judgements when I really doubt I’ve seen the game played to its limit by anyone quite yet.

(Hundopercent) #67

There is 0 skill in horizontal recoil. It is completely random. You can’t say X person mastered X weapon because he played it more. It’s ****en random. Left right left right…

(INF3RN0) #68

I consider reaction time of readjusting after the x-axis recoil kick skillful. Still I find the x-axis kick to be subtle enough to not be as much of an issue as some people make it (maybe it is if you use uber low sensitivity). Is it the best way of adding more skill to the weapons? Not really, but it does add something whether it’s liked or not.

That said it would make much more sense to be able to counter x-axis kick with burst/tapping, but it doesn’t seem like that’s how it works. If it’s gonna stay, then that should be taken into consideration.

(Protekt1) #69

I don’t see what the big deal is t h. It exists in other comp shooters like cs for example. If it is predictable enough you can control it fine and there isn’t that much so it really isn’t that hard, assuming it is predictable. Recoil bouncing slightly up and right isn’t terribly hard to master. Whatever they do, I hope it includes some skill curve.

(Protekt1) #70

If done right it shouldn’t be bouncing left then right then left except perhaps if you’re 10+ shots in. The first shots are supposed to be in a very predictable pattern going generally straight up. Then it veers continuously the same slanted direction becoming harder to control. You should be capable to identify the pattern and react accordingly. It should be designed towards being capable of controlling it.

(INF3RN0) #71

I agree with this. I’ve played lots of recoil pattern shooters and it can add a lot to a game. The main difference between xT and those games though is that xT has much less spread when hold firing, which is a good thing I think. If your hold firing and having to battle recoil then it’s the reward of landing your shots under such difficult aiming circumstances. Heck I’d actually like to test out much higher recoil from extended hold-firing and then alternatively have significant recoil avoidance when burst/tapping. The other plus of encouraged tap firing is slowing the average RoF and coincidentally controlling spread bloom, though I guess if you could learn to master the crazy recoil you could benefit from a slightly higher TTK in some situations.

(stealth6) #72

I’m no expert the most I know about this is what I’ve seen on Symthic, heard on youtube and learnt from pubs. When a gun has high horizontal and equal recoil in both directions you’re probably going to have a hard time to control it (this is what I think Rex, shaft & strych mean - too random). If the horizontal recoil pulls more to one side then it becomes more controlable. (like in CS)

(Smooth) #73

Horizontal recoil is a lot harder to control since you have to quickly adjust to it deciding to veer left or right, rather than just pull down at a roughly fixed rate.

It exists in Extraction to:

a) Make ironsights harder to control, since they have zero-spread and would be far too preferable if they were easier
b) Allow us to make low spread but high recoil weapons that aren’t too simple to handle and still balanced

It’s a fine balance to adjust and horizontal recoil has been reduced significantly on weapons where their accuracy was lacking but it is still a variable we’ll be using.

(spookify) #74

[QUOTE=Smooth;483115]Horizontal recoil is a lot harder to control since you have to quickly adjust to it deciding to veer left or right, rather than just pull down at a roughly fixed rate.

It exists in Extraction to:

a) Make ironsights harder to control, since they have zero-spread and would be far too preferable if they were easier
b) Allow us to make low spread but high recoil weapons that aren’t too simple to handle and still balanced

It’s a fine balance to adjust and horizontal recoil has been reduced significantly on weapons where their accuracy was lacking but it is still a variable we’ll be using.[/QUOTE]

I totally understand the Ironsights and get why its in the game I guess but something is up. I guess I havent really used that many AR’s but even though they say they have less spread I cant hit a barn with them. I am boycotting the AR’s. Other people can go ahead and use them. I dont even think Battle Field had as bad horizontal recoil… There Vertical recoil was a lot worse but I do not remember my weapons pulling to either side…

I will say it again Random is bad… Rather it be Spread or Horizontal recoil. So many other things could be adjusted…

I think SD might have to take a step back and possible lower ROF across the board. Give us an update on Hit box sizes, Fall off ranges and rethink some weapon recoils rather it be horizontal or vertical.

Example: AR (Should Be) - Very easy to control gun with very good Damage. Since it is easy to control no Horizontal recoil. Vertical recoil multiplies at bullet 10… This should be tested… Fall off damage at long range only. Same Spread. 3 Headshots Kills. Slower ROF Plus slightly Smaller headshot hit boxes… ---- Reasoning:
#1) 3 Headshots Can Insta Kill at close Range. = Good
#2) 6 Headshots Can get 2 kills very quickly = Good
#3) At Bullet 10 the shooter will have to make an adjustment for recoil. If he continues to fire into bullet 15 he will have to be dragging down very hard… Humm It actually doesnt sound very hard after I talk it out… I could probably destroy the entire team in one clip then… Humm… Maybe with the slower ROF and smaller hit boxes the actually fight will come out differently…
#4) Maybe Make their reload time longer just a little or get ride of his ragen so he needs a medic so he needs teamwork to keep wrecking people… A medic might have a change then if he can poke him down…
#5) Maybe while moving or sprinting his spread increase just a little more then say a medic. This give the medic a little more mobility over the AR person… Which is needed because of the medics 5 to 6 HS vs the 3 of an AR…

If you get ride of the randomness and start tweaking other thinks skill will decide the winner… Unless of course you are very close range and the AR 3 dinks you and you are like FFS!! Because even with the medic faster ROF you can only get 5 HS to his 3 in the same amount of time and you need 6 to kill sometimes. Or at least thats what it feels like. I would say find the ROF balance and start Testing…

I know you dont want to mess to much with the ROF because of the modern shooter thingy now days but please just take a look and possible consider a 50 - 100 drop or adjustment for some weapons with the spread or Horizontal recoil lowered.

(Smooth) #75

Symthic is a very good resources for this, if you have a look, all the BF3 weapons have some amount of horizontal recoil: http://symthic.com/bf3-weapon-charts

In XT our maximum horizontal recoil is typically around 0.2 - 0.5 degrees per shot, which works out to around 0.15 degrees deviation for each shot on average.

For reference, at typical hip-fire combat range (500u aka 10m) the head hitbox is 2 degrees in size.

Also for reference, here’s some accuracy plots. Comparing the first five shots of some typical weapons shooting at a target 10m. Please also bear in mind that our hitboxes extend quite a bit beyond the player model.

[ul]
[li]Top - M416 in BF3
[/li][li]Bottom - Skyhammer’s AR in XT
[/li][/ul]

acc_compare copy.jpg1000×1000 416 KB

This is NOT to be replicated anywhere else.

We will have accuracy plots of our own eventually but these are manually generated using the Plotic tool.

Please note that the ‘XT - Sighted’ plot doesn’t take into account the slightly variable upwards recoil (25% up/down usually) only the average amount.

(fubar) #76

And that’s exactly where my problem lies. Given the above visualization of the spread in this game, why bother with Iron Sights? We can maintain a near pixel perfect aim whilst hip-firing in bursts, which is infinitely easier to control and allows you more freedom in your character movement. I don’t mind ADS’ing, at all, I just don’t see any real benefit to it when the spread is, in the majority of cases, actually working in your favor. The only time I can see myself ADS’ing as of now is on longer distances where the lower FOV gives me a bigger target, but I can just as easily throw a FOV toggle on my right click instead and don’t have to face silly hindering penalties that serve no purpose. I’m just trying to figure out how exactly you plan on addressing this whole dilemma given that you’ve already stated iron sights are not to be removed and will stay in the game. :frowning: I love the hip-fire, I don’t want to see it go, but I don’t see ADS as anything but a “misguided” tool for newcomers, they’ll jump into the game assuming that it does exactly what it does in every other game and is therefor a requirement in order to accurately hit your target, while they’ll being at an utter disadvantage against anyone that doesn’t.

Also all the EU private servers are down, could that be checked into? They crashed sometime yesterday already :frowning:

(ailmanki) #77

The magic ironsight, removes spread and falloff damage, whats next? It makes pigs fly.

(Smooth) #78

That target is only 10m. We find iron-sights tend to start being used at 18-20m where they actually become useful.

You’re right though that newcomers will tend to use ironsights at all times by default since they’re trained to do that in other games. We’re toying with the idea of having part of the new-user flow include playing with some weapons without an ironsight attachment by default, to encourage players to use hip-fire and realise it’s effectiveness.

(spookify) #79

In XT you can only use ironsights if the person you are shooting at is standing still. Mostly against snipers to give you at least a chance. Other then that iron-sights are pointless.

Ironsights were way different in BF3 and COD because you had add-on like red dots and 3.4x sights making it trackable while strafing.

SD said they dont want iron sights to go away however they should only be used in Long range in-counters. Stop worrying about Hip fire spread vs iron sight spread so much and get hip fire right first… The maps arent big enough to people to be running around with iron-sights up.

Plus not many people used the general iron sights the gun came with. people had add-on sights. So unless you are going to add red dots or 3.4x sights there’s no way iron sights will ever be used unless its super long range where you have time to bring it up and start poking people…

Whats your stats say for non-sniper iron-sight kills vs Hip Fire kills? Yeah…

In COD you could add a Laser thingy to your gun making hip-fire more accorate. So even in COD i didnt even use iron sights…

Notice the use of Iron-sights in BF3… Its not like XT where I need 3 HS to kill… Plus that SCRA ROF seems like a lot less then the XT Gun… Plus watch my reloads… That gun I could feel when I was getting low on ammo and make sure I stepped away and got more bullets into my gun… I reload once with 1 bullet left and once with 3 bullets left… Xt Needs that feeling. The Horizontal wasnt very noticeable in BF3 because you were tapping, the damage of the guns was more powerful and iron-sights were up 90% of the time.

[video=youtube_share;1OxwfYMMXiE]http://youtu.be/1OxwfYMMXiE[/video]

BF3 Movement appears slower then XT, but you can prone, pick up other gun and heal faster more like ET, defib like ET. It’s just a totally different game then XT however its very close to being the same…

Imagine if BF3 had more maps like metro and gave hip fire the same acc as iron sight and decrease damage to where it take 3 hs’s to kills someone… Thats XT… Boom Bam…

[video=youtube_share;el6UVHoBJBY]http://youtu.be/el6UVHoBJBY[/video]

Even COD has prone!

(acekiller345) #80

Well done, you spelled “distribute” wrong on the photo. In a hurry while making this? :stuck_out_tongue: