the current state of the spread system

[Seanza]

I have a question with the Auto Assault Rifle the Spread is crazy close to W:ET yet that is the worst gun for me… Which Character uses that gun again? Stoker or Sky? I just at both of them for some reason… Is there something else in play because it sure doesnt feel close to W:ET as the numbers would suggest?

Movement and ROF is probably a variable in the comparison too. Also the fact that the audio doesn’t match the visual feedback.

[fubar]

[QUOTE=Smooth;482553]I’m up for testing a slight overall spread reduction (say 10%) and increasing recoil a little to compensate.

I’ll also throw in slightly different jumping penalties as well. You won’t get this in the very next update, but the one after that

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values, and miles away from anything else. We also have other things to contend with now, like faster (modern) rates of fire and supporting ironsights (no they won’t just go away!) which means we can’t go too far before hip-fired weapons become all too-similar and overly deadly at all ranges.

For comparisons sake:

W:ET - MP40/Thompson - Min/Max Spread: 0.4/2.8 degrees (don’t have RTCW values to hand but it’s higher than this)
ET:QW - Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.5 degrees
Brink - Gerund AR - Min/Max Spread: 1.9/7.0 degrees

XT - Current Average Auto SMG - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.2 degrees
XT - Current Average Auto Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 0.5/2.7 degrees[/QUOTE]

Hah, finally. I knew I wasn’t going bat**** insane over the “spread” in this game. People kept complaining without pause, while I just… never saw it. And yes, RtCW values are a lot higher. I’ve forged some through the source but gave up pretty quickly, couldn’t find them as fast I wanted, rest assured, RtCW’s spread is easily and without a doubt twice that of ET’s.

[Kendle]

RtCW’s spread is easily and without a doubt twice that of ET’s.

This is going a bit off-topic, but I don’t think that’s true.

When Bani was developing ETPro I’m sure I saw a discussion on this point which stated RTCW’s spread is the same as ET’s, but the difference in RoF meant the guns in RTCW reached max. spread sooner than they did in ET. Furthermore, because spread increases as you fire (up to a max. value) then reduces (over time) when you stop firing, burst-firing in RTCW ensured spread was not really a problem.

So it’s not just the headline numbers for min / max spread, it’s how that’s tied to RoF and how quickly it goes from min to max and back again. I find that burst-firing “works”, but not as well as I’d expect or like it to, which probably means it gets to max value too quickly and / or doesn’t reduce to min value quickly enough.

[fubar]

[QUOTE=Kendle;482576]This is going a bit off-topic, but I don’t think that’s true.

When Bani was developing ETPro I’m sure I saw a discussion on this point which stated RTCW’s spread is the same as ET’s, but the difference in RoF meant the guns in RTCW reached max. spread sooner than they did in ET. Furthermore, because spread increases as you fire (up to a max. value) then reduces (over time) when you stop firing, burst-firing in RTCW ensured spread was not really a problem.

So it’s not just the headline numbers for min / max spread, it’s how that’s tied to RoF and how quickly it goes from min to max and back again. I find that burst-firing “works”, but not as well as I’d expect or like it to, which probably means it gets to max value too quickly and / or doesn’t reduce to min value quickly enough.[/QUOTE]

I have to disagree, this may very well be what they intended to do, in theory, but the reality is very much not the same. ETPro’s spread in comparison to OSP is near to non-existent. Having played both games on a high competitive level, maybe I’m talking out of my ass here, who knows. But the feeling is absolutely not anywhere close to one and another. The MP40 is somewhat closer, I suppose. But the Thompson’s spread is massive. I’ll try and see if I can find the numbers for you.

Edit: https://github.com/id-Software/RTCW-MP/blob/master/src/game/g_weapon.c#L1270

Yeah, I have no idea how those values are defined or where, but I gave up looking. Maybe someone that cares, more. Will want to check it.
But, have a look at this, perhaps. https://github.com/id-Software/RTCW-MP/blob/master/src/game/g_weapon.c#L1557

Edit 2: Or, for comparison ET: https://github.com/id-Software/Enemy-Territory/blob/master/src/game/g_weapon.c#L3005
Don’t hesitate to tell me I’m looking at the wrong place entirely.

[shaftz0r]

I have a question with the Auto Assault Rifle the Spread is crazy close to W:ET yet that is the worst gun for me… Which Character uses that gun again? Stoker or Sky? I just at both of them for some reason… Is there something else in play because it sure doesnt feel close to W:ET as the numbers would suggest?

i agree. by far the worst weapons for me

[Kendle]

@fubar, yeah it looks like RTCW and ET MP40 are the same, but Thompson is way out (guess that’s why most people favoured MP40 in RTCW?), but then RoF was faster in RTCW, so spread would’ve been greater even for the MP40 simply because it got to its max value quicker. I’m just remembering conversations from a long time ago …

I’d like to know how quickly spread gets from min to max in XT, because it could be it’s so fast that the min value is effectively redundant. I’d like to see that time frame, and recovery back to min value, tweaked to promote bursting.

But even then, this is all pretty academic for me, because I think the guns are mostly fine as it is. I think Seanza nailed it :-

Since the post about the increased spread and recoil, people have been whining. I think the biggest mistake that was made for the patch notes was that the values of which it was increased by was not disclosed. People just assumed it was a crazy amount.

[shaftz0r]

also there was no falloff dmg in RtCW

[Brinkman]

The only thing that annoyed me with this game so far is that every release seems to benefit the side stepping, dancing, head shot scanning players rather than the ones that take time to aim.

This coming from someone who has spent a load of time playing vanilla W:ET. It worked in that game fine, but with Extraction, it just doesn’t feel right anymore. Maybe I’ve grown out of that style of combat and would rather be rewarded with accuracy rather than dancing back and forth.

Lower recoil on stationary and up cone of fire on moving/shooting.

[INF3RN0]

I honestly don’t think it is true at all that aim isn’t rewarded. I’d say the gap isn’t that big, but the better aimer will win most of the time. I strongly believe that a majority of people are just so caught up in themselves they can’t come to terms with that. Factors like movement and smart plays are just something that helps prevent the game from being a bland aim sim. If anything the amount of effort you need to put into picking your engagements intelligently due to the weapon mechanics is a lot bigger of a factor, where as you might get a few kills and die to the last guy because your spread has bloomed to the point that your aim doesn’t matter anymore. So you’ll die more often, but a good player will always be ahead of the pack by a fair margin.

[Protekt1]

I’m looking forward to the spread reduction and change in jump mechanics. I think it could make enough of a difference actually. Looking forward to testing it. Hopefully on US servers

[Hundopercent]

[QUOTE=Smooth;482553]I’m up for testing a slight overall spread reduction (say 10%) and increasing recoil a little to compensate.

I’ll also throw in slightly different jumping penalties as well. You won’t get this in the very next update, but the one after that

I would like to say that we are very, very close to W:ET and ET:QW values, and miles away from anything else. We also have other things to contend with now, like faster (modern) rates of fire and supporting ironsights (no they won’t just go away!) which means we can’t go too far before hip-fired weapons become all too-similar and overly deadly at all ranges.

For comparisons sake:

W:ET - MP40/Thompson - Min/Max Spread: 0.4/2.8 degrees (don’t have RTCW values to hand but it’s higher than this)
ET:QW - Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.5 degrees
Brink - Gerund AR - Min/Max Spread: 1.9/7.0 degrees

XT - Current Average Auto SMG - Min/Max Spread: 1.0/3.2 degrees
XT - Current Average Auto Assault Rifle - Min/Max Spread: 0.5/2.7 degrees[/QUOTE]

Can’t compare these Smooth.

The hitboxes in RtCW are probably 3 - 4X bigger, it took 2 - 3 HS for a kill, there was no damage fall off, and crouching made the mp40 near laser accurate. The game has a Brink feel to it. When you have to make your clip sizes 40 - 85 rounds, that should be a warning sign that you have an issue with your gunplay.

[ailmanki]

[QUOTE=Brinkman;482842]The only thing that annoyed me with this game so far is that every release seems to benefit the side stepping, dancing, head shot scanning players rather than the ones that take time to aim.

This coming from someone who has spent a load of time playing vanilla W:ET. It worked in that game fine, but with Extraction, it just doesn’t feel right anymore. Maybe I’ve grown out of that style of combat and would rather be rewarded with accuracy rather than dancing back and forth.

Lower recoil on stationary and up cone of fire on moving/shooting.[/QUOTE]

Yeah sure vanilla ET

[Kl3ppy]

So, when the spread is almost the same like ETQW/ET, why does shooting feel like a lottery? I know I’m not the best aimer, but at least in ETQW I actually hit what I aim for. But in xt i dont hit ****.
Is it just the poor performance? Is it the Unreal Egine? Or what does cause the shooting lottery?

[Smooth]

[QUOTE=strychzilla;482872]Can’t compare these Smooth.

The hitboxes in RtCW are probably 3 - 4X bigger, it took 2 - 3 HS for a kill, there was no damage fall off, and crouching made the mp40 near laser accurate. The game has a Brink feel to it. When you have to make your clip sizes 40 - 85 rounds, that should be a warning sign that you have an issue with your gunplay.[/QUOTE]

There’s some exaggeration here, body-hitboxes are around 75% the size of W:ET (don’t have RTCW source & the head size is more like 90%) and the typical magazine size for the automatic AR/SMG’s in XT is 35-40.

These values, including things like TTK, DPS, damage-per-mag, spread-time, player-speed etc. are definitely comparable but we’re never going to up and clone any previous game. The only reason I posted these values was to calm some of the “omg it’s just like BRINK” claims, when it’s much closer to other games than this.

Gameplay evolves, business models change and the audience expectations differ. All of this needs to be taken into account in the design and implementation of gameplay features.

We will continue to update easily tweakable variables like this based on player feedback and gameplay stats. You’ll just have to bear in mind that the opinions and statistics from newer players will be as equally as valid as your own.

[Smooth]

[QUOTE=Shifty.;482904]So, when the spread is almost the same like ETQW/ET, why does shooting feel like a lottery? I know I’m not the best aimer, but at least in ETQW I actually hit what I aim for. But in xt i dont hit ****.
Is it just the poor performance? Is it the Unreal Egine? Or what does cause the shooting lottery?[/QUOTE]

In many cases it’s going to be a combination of lacklustre hit feedback, incorrect weapon fire-rate audio, poor performance and some potential networking/hit-detection issues.

It’s still a Beta and all these elements are still being worked on.

Also I don’t have your stats for the Beta to hand, but in the CA your average accuracy was 29.36%

I’d hardly say that’s “in xt i dont hit ****”

[Kl3ppy]

[QUOTE=Smooth;482907]In many cases it’s going to be a combination of lacklustre hit feedback, incorrect weapon fire-rate audio, poor performance and some potential networking/hit-detection issues.

It’s still a Beta and all these elements are still being worked on.

Also I don’t have your stats for the Beta to hand, but in the CA your average accuracy was 29.36%

I’d hardly say that’s “in xt i dont hit ****” [/QUOTE]

Well, almost 30% is too low, I aim for 35%
But in the CA, the game felt good, there was one build where I actually was really happy with my performance and the game feedback/performance. Must be in may/june. But since that build (shame i dont remember the build number) it got worse. at least for me.

So, will we see some improvements in the next build on the points you mentioned?

[fubar]

(don’t have RTCW source & the head size is more like 90%)

Apart from them being open source and posted above! Silly Smooth.
RtCW hitboxes are slightly smaller than ET’s, though this is mostly due to the fact that RtCW is played without antilag, and… well… has horrendous Antilag.

But, I have to agree with the poster above, ETPro’s hitboxes ARE bigger. I have no issues aiming in xT, most of the time I miss my shot I realize that it’s due to my own fault, there are some netcode issues now and then, but I genuinely love the hitboxes and register thus far.

Also I don’t have your stats for the Beta to hand, but in the CA your average accuracy was 29.36%

I’d say do me too please, but I don’t think there’s much data to go on, I only really recall having played 2 or 3 drafts in which I forcefully never used iron sights to… test. But, would still be fun to know P:

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=Smooth;482907]In many cases it’s going to be a combination of lacklustre hit feedback, incorrect weapon fire-rate audio, poor performance and some potential networking/hit-detection issues.
[/QUOTE]

I’d be curious to see the average player accuracies and highest consistent accuracies per weapon type.

[Smooth]

Here’s some Closed Beta stats:

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=Smooth;482916]Here’s some Closed Beta stats
[/QUOTE]

Very similar to ETQW it would seem. I have to wonder if those highest accuracy stats are persistent or flukes though. Do you know the stats for the highest accuracy over a significantly extended period of play time and what it is? 35-40% as a cap for highest achievable accuracy with SMGs/Rifles isn’t too bad if it’s real.