The Cold Hard Truth About Fraggers Nade...

(Humbugsen) #21

[QUOTE=spookify;525904]Nades are fine… What is the big deal… Good players with nades are going to kill you…

Also in pubs I am physically going to nade people like you (Pixel) (Prophett) (Inferno) (All SD members) out of spawns because you are probably one of the better players on the team. So not only are you being naded you are being specifically targeted, which is part of the game.

Side Note:
Get out of the 8v8 obj servers and into more 5v5 SW MM que’s! I played a 5v5 Match last night and each team had 2 fraggers, nades were not an issue…[/QUOTE]

makes me sad to read “each team had 2 fraggers”
In a teambased objective shooter, fragger should be the most useless and rather situational merc. (In my opinion of course)
right now fragger is not only a fragger but also the tanker, he is the most useful in every map(stage).
And it’s not like you say “good players with nades will kill you” but more like every noob that practiced throwing nades for 2minutes will kill you

Also don’t get how some people like to die(and get instagibbed) by an ability that requires ZERO skill to use and is unavoidable
must be the fragger only players.

(Amerika) #22

People do not fall into one of two camps.

I saw this thread already posted on the nexon forums and answered there so here is my link to it as I’m not going to copy/paste. This is a dumb argument style and it’s manipulative even if I agree with some of the points made and with how SD is handling things currently. http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/comment/15856/#Comment_15856

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525921]makes me sad to read “each team had 2 fraggers”
In a teambased objective shooter, fragger should be the most useless and rather situational merc. (In my opinion of course)
right now fragger is not only a fragger but also the tanker, he is the most useful in every map(stage).
And it’s not like you say “good players with nades will kill you” but more like every noob that practiced throwing nades for 2minutes will kill you

Also don’t get how some people like to die(and get instagibbed) by an ability that requires ZERO skill to use and is unavoidable
must be the fragger only players.[/QUOTE]

I agree that Fragger’s nades need changing (canceling after cooking them is the biggest issue in my eyes) but don’t be this type of person. Making accusatory statements and labeling people just because you feel salty. If you’re dying to nades constantly that means you are the type of player who plays head forward and has no situational awareness. What do you do when you see a Fragger and you fire at him and he goes around the corner? Do you sit there and wait for them to pop out to engage with him? If so, you’re probably going to eat a nade. You don’t sit and shoot in this game. You move. And if you move predictably or stand still you will die a lot. On pub servers people still don’t know to move. People who have 70+ hours into this game which is just crazy to me.

If you’re playing correctly you might still die to a nade but it will be pretty rare and most of the time will end up being because a teammate was spotted, didn’t move, and you happen to run up on them at the wrong time. That’s almost always how I die to Fragger nades these days even on pubs.

Yes, they need adjusting. SD is taking care of it. But being overly zealous without putting actual thought into the class (keeping it viable) and into your own play could result in an over nerf and then we have one useless merc in the rotation which nobody wants. And saying things like, " an ability that requires ZERO skill to use and is unavoidable
must be the fragger only players. " is childish.

(Rémy Cabresin) #23

Bad players rant. Good players deal with it and find a way. If you lose a match because of 1 Fragger, you’re simply part of a bad team.

Example: in ET quite a bit of (competitive(top))players aren’t happy with riflenade(the ET equivalent of Fragger i suppose), but unless there is already a big skillgap between two teams, the rifler is never ‘the one thing’ causing a map loss or win. Ofcourse some chokepoints are easier to hold with riflenades but it doesn’t make it unbreachable. That’s how I, and the people I play with a lot, see Fragger right now.

Also, Fragger can be classed with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w
It’s just one argument vs the other. Just leave it alone until there are more mercs and counters…

(spookify) #24

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525921]makes me sad to read “each team had 2 fraggers”
In a teambased objective shooter, fragger should be the most useless and rather situational merc. (In my opinion of course)
right now fragger is not only a fragger but also the tanker, he is the most useful in every map(stage).
And it’s not like you say “good players with nades will kill you” but more like every noob that practiced throwing nades for 2minutes will kill you

Also don’t get how some people like to die(and get instagibbed) by an ability that requires ZERO skill to use and is unavoidable
must be the fragger only players.[/QUOTE]

I understand where you are coming from and yes the fact that 2 fraggers is almost a must is a little ridiculous. But SD did make Fragger the fragger and he is a killing machine.

We also have to remember that we only have a few mercs to pick from… I think this talk might be a thing of the past in a few months or a year.

I also do not have a problem with lower skilled players using fragger.
#1) They cant afford him
#2) Cooking and Placement is a Skill
#3) There is a giant Red Blinking Dot on the floor… Look out… (Long Jump Away)

#25

Nading or airstriking people where people usually are defending = Game working as intended. Dont see lack of depth.

Desire to stand where is a good spot to defend, and somehow not get killed of nading or airstrikes is … I dont know, wishful thinking?

In MOBAS there is superior magic, that there is no defence for.
No physical immune, or magic immune item can counter it.

Its meant to kill you, when choosing that class.

Airstrikes and nades are supposed to kill players who stand in obvious defence spots.

I feel map awareness is king in both MOBAs and FPS. No item or weapon is as OP as map awareness.

(Rémy Cabresin) #26

[QUOTE=JBRAA;525926]Nading or airstriking people where people usually are defending = Game working as intended. Dont see lack of depth.

Desire to stand where is a good spot to defend, and somehow not get killed of nading or airstrikes is … I dont know, wishful thinking?

In MOBAS there is superior magic, that there is no defence for.
No physical immune, or magic immune item can counter it.

Its meant to kill you, when choosing that class.

Airstrikes and nades are supposed to kill players who stand in obvious defence spots.

I feel map awareness is king in both MOBAs and FPS. No item or weapon is as OP as map awareness.[/QUOTE]

Map awareness(‘gamesense’) and team communication(in mm ofc, in pub noone cares xD) are the biggest factors towards winning between equally mechanically skilled teams in whatever game/genre.

(Humbugsen) #27

wow you guys are such awesome players…
you forget that fraggers can be good players too
they can for example communicate with their team: “someone incoming?” “yes” starts cooking to instagib… (don’t even need that if there is a heartbeat sensor)
the only merc who can deal with fragger is vasilli, but consistent headshots with a sniper require LOTS more skill than those grenades, and if you miss your first shot, the aimpunch will rape you and you have to retreat. And no matter how good you aim with vasilli, the enemy can still crouchspam.

(INF3RN0) #28

I’m still sticking with my idea of scaling AoE with cooktime until I see something better. It might be ‘odd’ but it’s the most direct means of making the cook mechanic skillful and encouraging the use of both cooked and uncooked nades at varying degrees.

(tangoliber) #29

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525929]wow you guys are such awesome players…
you forget that fraggers can be good players too
they can for example communicate with their team: “someone incoming?” “yes” starts cooking to instagib… (don’t even need that if there is a heartbeat sensor)

[/QUOTE]
If the team is communicating well and anticipating your actions, then they could also just setup crossfires when you are incoming or something else. I don’t think Dirty Bomb is trying to prevent all possible One Hit Kills, like Brink was. It’s okay to communicate an enemy’s movement and set a trap…

(PixelTwitch) #30

I think this would be a really cool mechanic for the Fragger but I think its going to really strange for the people being hit by a nade. Sure if I see the Fragger throw it, it will be fine. However, I just feel if I see a nade icon for a fraction of a second I should know if I am safely out of damages way and not have to cross fingers based on how long the fragger cooked it for.

(BioSnark) #31

The icon is a glowing halo, isn’t it? If you want to make that dynamically adaptive, it could be done so intuitively. Not sure that much information should be communicated, however.

Inferno or szakalot’s suggested changes would both be welcome.

(Humbugsen) #32

there are so many arguments why fragger is broken, and they keep taking me as a noobkid and tell me about map awareness and learn to play.
In fact i’ve been playing FPS games for 15 years and I’ve never seen a that broken grenade in any game.
If it takes 4-7 headshots to kill somebody with a smg, there can’t be a 1hit kill+GIB grenade that requires literally 0 skill to hit AND offers no counterplay.
One hit kills are fine as long as they’re avoidable or counterable. If i could shoot the grenade while flying to make it explode earlier or if the travelspeed was slower so i could dodge it if i see it early that would be ok, but as it stands it’s simply op. press and hold left mousebutton for an instakill+gib… awesome
and setting up crossfire is a whole different story and won’t instagib anyone.

(Glottis-3D) #33

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Humbugsen again.

(montheponies) #34

[QUOTE=Humbugsen;525971]there are so many arguments why fragger is broken, and they keep taking me as a noobkid and tell me about map awareness and learn to play.
In fact i’ve been playing FPS games for 15 years and I’ve never seen a that broken grenade in any game.
If it takes 4-7 headshots to kill somebody with a smg, there can’t be a 1hit kill+GIB grenade that requires literally 0 skill to hit AND offers no counterplay.
One hit kills are fine as long as they’re avoidable or counterable. If i could shoot the grenade while flying to make it explode earlier or if the travelspeed was slower so i could dodge it if i see it early that would be ok, but as it stands it’s simply op. press and hold left mousebutton for an instakill+gib… awesome
and setting up crossfire is a whole different story and won’t instagib anyone.[/QUOTE]

You must have missed the nades (lots of them, most deadly) in RTCW - along with the king of unavoidable/counterables - the panzerfaust.

The only reason Fragger’s nades are causing consternation is because no other merc has them…back in the good old days (Alpha) they did, mebbe not as many, and not replenishable, but they where there…going back to RTCW, the engineer had something like 6 - good god how could we even play such a mindless game…well i guess because it remained fun.

Lets cut out the crap, give everyone a nade (one use per life, except fragger’s cooldown) then we’ll be fine - and please dont come at me with SDs defence of cutting down spam…;

mines
arty
shotgun
bouncing shotgun
turrets
mines
airstrike
nader
martyrdom
mines
shotgun

(INF3RN0) #35

Similarly to what biosnark said… I was thinking perhaps some kind of audible and visual cue. An increasing beeping or clicking as the grenade was close to exploding. I’d prefer the visual cue be tied into the mine detection perk, but it could display a flashing circle at increasing intervals in a similar way. Otherwise I’m open to other ideas, but I think this one offers the most benefits and variety thus far.

(Glottis-3D) #36

[QUOTE=montheponies;525984]
Lets cut out the crap, give everyone a nade (one use per life, except fragger’s cooldown) then we’ll be fine - and please dont come at me with SDs defence of cutting down spam…;

mines
arty
shotgun
bouncing shotgun
turrets
mines
airstrike
nader
martyrdom
mines
shotgun[/QUOTE]

totaly agreed!
but strange that you forgot to mention sticky bombs… and mines.

(Humbugsen) #37

[QUOTE=montheponies;525984]You must have missed the nades (lots of them, most deadly) in RTCW - along with the king of unavoidable/counterables - the panzerfaust.

The only reason Fragger’s nades are causing consternation is because no other merc has them…back in the good old days (Alpha) they did, mebbe not as many, and not replenishable, but they where there…going back to RTCW, the engineer had something like 6 - good god how could we even play such a mindless game…well i guess because it remained fun.

[/QUOTE]

Didn’t really play RTCW (only some singleplayer :D) but in ET grenades were balanced, why?:

  • It took longer to cook grenades, if you took a grenade in a gunfight you were dead 100%, and you gibbed yourself!
  • Cancel cooking was not possible
  • Grenades didn’t refill over time, you needed a field ops to resupply you and this field ops couldn’t use his airstrike/artillery then.
  • (everyone had them)

most games don’t allow cooking at all, but in ET it was really well done

to panzerfaust:

  • it made a really loud noise and in a straight up fight you were able to kill the panzerfaust guy before the shot went out
  • he only had a pistol sidearm
  • if you killed only 1 guy with it, it was a total waste, because of cooldown and ammo limitation
  • it was limited to 1-2 on every etpro server
  • soldier was overall less useful, he couldn’t defuse nor help up

I also understand the “balance for skill” thing someone posted, but when it gets to a point where a total noob can kill the best aimer in the world…
And by the way I think nader is pretty well balanced with her 100hp, but fragger is also tanker AND he has his giant backpack that protects him even more

(Protekt1) #38

I hope people try to keep some perspective in that not even every merc is out yet. Are people gonna complain about stoker til molotovs get nerfed or with rhino for having so much HP and a powerful weapon? Also, I’ve always felt like thunder is just as good if not stronger than fragger, although the various versions of the game may have me a little mixed up on this.

I don’t mean to say everything is all fine with fragger, nor do I say he is broken or OP, I frankly don’t have much of an opinion in this regard. I guess I do lean a bit more towards him being balanced than not, so I don’t think he needs much changing. They could make it easier to spot when he is cooking the grenade. Maybe he holds his arm up high or something obvious.

I certainly haven’t played the most recent build as much as most have, but I think fragger - while he likely needs tweaking - is mostly fine.

Also, hyperbole in this discussion doesn’t really help much. For example, I read someone claim it takes literally no skill to use the grenade and then that the best player in the world loses to fragger being used by a noob or something. Using grenades still takes aim and judgment.

(Chux) #39

I was ranting about nades a bit more before, but as a former rifler myself, I started thinking a bit differently about them. It’s a tool to start a fight, flush people out from behind cover and area control in a way. They definitely should have the capability to kill someone out right, but it should require some practice. Seems like it a bit to simple to use it well atm.

The W:ET rifle is a good comparison, but even the rifle had cooldown, deploy delay and even ammo restrictions. Other than cooldown, the nade doesn’t have any right now. Cooking cancel should go, if you already committed yourself to priming it, you should either stick to cooking or throw it sooner and engage in combat if needed.

The behavior should be experimented and see how it works. Personally, I don’t mind the damage, but i think the blast radius is just weird in general.To be more precise, the max damage should be more concentrated. Others should still receive some damage within the radius, but not die so far out from the blast. Right now I kind of have the feeling you either get instagibed or hardly suffer at all. Maybe prolong the cook time also a bit.

Another thing I’d like to ask is if there is any damage absorption from the blast ? Meaning if you still take explosive damage if you are at the back of a group. Haven’t had a chance to test this but it felt like teamates didn’t act as a meat shield for explosions.

(NeroKirbus) #40

Thunder is my favorite assault by far, but he simply outclassed by fragger due to his nade. If he is able to have immunity with his own conc nades, then it will make him at most just as good. if that isn’t happening, then at least give him 10 more hp (total 170) to make him that much tankier than fragger.

I still want some sort of debuff to objective actions if hit by the conc nade as well so there would be a purpose to use it on people planting objectives at the least.

Didn’t mean to de-rail the discussion, just wanted to throw in my 2 cents.