The best idea I've heard for Phantom

(Naonna) #21

If they know there’s no sniper watching them with a spotter ability, it would alert them immediately that there’s a phantom around. After that, they just have to follow the noise unless phantom can somehow run without being a blurry smudge. - It’s easy enough to find a spy in tf2 after knowing they’re in the general area: and spy doesn’t make noise or have an outline.

(Reddeadcap) #22

@Naonna This is a more accurate depiction of Phantom when cloaked, especially when moving.

But in all seriousness, SD really needs to look into changing Phantom.

(Verticules) #23

Add a medic with the same stealth mechanic and boom… Viability for Phantom.

(Naonna) #24

… a medic or engie with a cloak would just give even MORE reason not to play phantom.

(bontsa) #25

Whatever Splash Damage is thinking of reworking Phantom with right now (was stated in dev stream afaik?), I honestly hope it includes removing the most absolute bull defecation move he is able to pull off now and is least on idea level making any direct buff ideas seem nudge him on the overpowered side; ability to instantly exit his cloak and deal whopping 100 dmg on his foe or starting a devastating SMG burst straight to the dome.

Add anything to his state-of-crap cloakshield hybrid: he gets even better tool to stand around somewhere and is able to pull this off more often than now, even being able to do it on the move more often. Add another ability but keep this in: he will still be whined greatly about on pub settings, possibly leading to another nerf on him.

Reworking this would give much more leash in my opinion on working on his even current abilities. Although anti-spotting or some distraction ability should be quite a must for him to get the spot in roster he deserves. We’ll see what SD has in mind for him, hope it’s gut.

(Reddeadcap) #26

[quote=“bontsa;151605”]Whatever Splash Damage is thinking of reworking Phantom with right now (was stated in dev stream afaik?), I honestly hope it includes removing the most absolute bull defecation move he is able to pull off now and is least on idea level making any direct buff ideas seem nudge him on the overpowered side; ability to instantly exit his cloak and deal whopping 100 dmg on his foe or starting a devastating SMG burst straight to the dome.

Add anything to his state-of-crap cloakshield hybrid: he gets even better tool to stand around somewhere and is able to pull this off more often than now, even being able to do it on the move more often. Add another ability but keep this in: he will still be whined greatly about on pub settings, possibly leading to another nerf on him.

Reworking this would give much more leash in my opinion on working on his even current abilities. Although anti-spotting or some distraction ability should be quite a must for him to get the spot in roster he deserves. We’ll see what SD has in mind for him, hope it’s gut.[/quote]
I see your point.

If it means a longer lasting(both in being cloaked and as a shield), quicker cooldowned, quieter cloak so he can actually move around without the entire map knowing where he is, I don’t see why having him actively uncloak himself before attacking shouldn’t be implemented, along with him being unable to cloak while detected.

As for a secondary tool, I personally wish he’d get the most powerful detection tool at the price of the longest cooldown and being vulnerable while doing in like I posted on other threads or @Naonna s idea some sort of Detection Mines.

@Naonna Phantom is basically a 10 speed slower Sawbonez, with at least the Kek at his disposal, a cloak that is best used when nowhere near enemies and at least Sawbonez can heal himself and others and revive them. So theres already a reason why one wouldn’t pick Phantom over a medic.

(bontsa) #27

I see your point.

If it means a longer lasting(both in being cloaked and as a shield), quicker cooldowned, quieter cloak so he can actually move around without the entire map knowing where he is, I don’t see why having him actively uncloak himself before attacking shouldn’t be implemented, along with him being unable to cloak while detected.[/quote]

Yep, this. I think this is the situation SD should look into other games ideas and take influence of them. In other words, blatantly copy some aspects of the existing and working mechanic and how it is executed instead of desperately trying to re-invent the wheel.

TF2 Spy makes stealth element spot-on in class-based, fast phased shooter. Complete invisiblity that encourages relocation, patience and intel gathering instead of aggressive in-yo-face stabbing out of nowhere with a shield. I’m just fine with shield aspect and even some noice however, DB does work differently than TF2.

Only thing that is global is how irritating pretty much un-retaliable OHKO’s are and how they must be done “right”, like Vassili’s after instagib removal. Theres still plenty of counterplay for it yet it stays usable in higher level of play despite that (only saying about instant downing, 1 shot gibbing mechanics, not removal of jumpshots, thats for another thread(s)).

Besides, that fancy “ideas for ability/weapon inspection” thread made me really itch to see Phantom give a good ol’ “work goddamnit” smack on his armour panel and cussing a little when his cloak runs out completely :>

(Furious_Murloc) #28

For me it’s really good idea, it’s something like oracle in Ghost Recon Phantoms :smiley:

(Reddeadcap) #29

@Furious_Murloc Something similar to the Oracle is what many people are discussing, an AOE detection pulse.

@bontsa I really didn’t find insta-kills via headshots, especially via the Fel-ix and MoA that unretaliable, it just makes sense that they’d be more powerful at longe range and that Headshots instantly killing enemies if the damage was too much for the merc to survive.

With headshots the MOA doing 150, Fel-ix doing 158 and PDP doing 90, it makes sense too me,
Except for the fact that The Fel-ix’ damage was reduced to 79 because it meant a body shot was enough to down Aura or Sparks, 2 mercs that rely on their small size and high movement speed to get very close or to get away from a fight…

That change was done during a time where the meta was just to go Aura because the only AOE damage dealing merc was Fragger at the time and Aura’s station had more health, would activate instantly and recovering it was almost instant if it was destroyed.

So I’m pretty sure this weapon change came from the same source that SD got the stats they showed recently.

(bontsa) #30

[quote=“Redcap;151701”]
@bontsa I really didn’t find insta-kills via headshots, especially via the Fel-ix and MoA that unretaliable, it just makes sense that they’d be more powerful at longe range and that Headshots instantly killing enemies if the damage was too much for the merc to survive.[/quote]

We seem to be greatly agreeing on subject at hand here, on both Phantom and Vassili that I briefly mentioned as an example of insta-downing done right. I really need to start re-phrasing myself better because this isn’t the first (and sadly not prolly the last time) I get misunderstood. Pardon me, I won’t be talking more of Vassili as it is not the point of the thread, but I need to correct this :wink:

[quote=“bontsa;151668”]
Only thing that is global is how irritating pretty much un-retaliable OHKO’s are and how they must be done “right”, like Vassili’s after instagib removal. Theres still plenty of counterplay for it yet it stays usable in higher level of play despite that (only saying about instant downing, 1 shot gibbing mechanics, not removal of jumpshots, thats for another thread(s)).[/quote]

I mentioned this merely because I too feel Vassilis instakills are o’right at the moment, there is the basic anti-sniper counterplay to it (positioning, movement routes). Why I brought it up is because Phantom’s instakills (and very shortly gibbing too due to melee range) feel just outright idiotic when I pull them off by, for example, standing still on Underground 2nd obj escalators just before enemy spawnwave hits in, and stabbing poor Aura in the face without any retaliation possibility. Sound is nullified by overall chaos around, target’s movement is so fast that crounching nearby wall makes Phantom practically invis. Which is good, but the fact I can just peka-bo in the face is not.

That’s the lack of counterplay I mean. Sure, every spawnwave enemy could walk into the scene carefully listening and even spraying few bullets to wall areas to “check” for hit regs but that just seems clunky for the phase of game. Positioning and movement routes can be utilized in Phantom countering too, but due his invis actually working in stand-still situations and instantaneous manners of damage dealing, it just feels to frustrating to receive and meh to even do yourself. Not to mention much harder to counter despite very much less frequently encountered than let’s say dodging Vassili.

TF2 can have “checking” mechanic pretty much because of short-range flamethrower Pyro class they have, with hitreg / cooldown related explosions it just becomes too effortful. But were they to pull that checking off, Phantom in said situation becomes even more useless. Almost any other merc can be utilized in more ways, but Phantom seems to be just 1-hit-wonder without real diversity or being helpful in other ways if one thing doesn’t work.

(Naonna) #31

phantom’s m2 stab no longer 1shots vassili with chopper. - sad day.

(blisteringOwlNest) #32

^ nothing like an anti sniper merc not being able to kill snipers.

(Yes I know he can still kill snipers. It’s the principle of the thing)

(l2c) #33

@bontsa said:
Whatever Splash Damage is thinking of reworking Phantom with right now (was stated in dev stream afaik?), I honestly hope it includes removing the most absolute bull defecation move he is able to pull off now and is least on idea level making any direct buff ideas seem nudge him on the overpowered side; ability to instantly exit his cloak and deal whopping 100 dmg on his foe or starting a devastating SMG burst straight to the dome.

Having to manually decloak before being able to do anything usefull would be horrible, it’s already hard enough to not be noticed/hit someone moving before they notice you.

(bontsa) #34

[quote=“Love2Camp;152617”]> @bontsa said:

Whatever Splash Damage is thinking of reworking Phantom with right now (was stated in dev stream afaik?), I honestly hope it includes removing the most absolute bull defecation move he is able to pull off now and is least on idea level making any direct buff ideas seem nudge him on the overpowered side; ability to instantly exit his cloak and deal whopping 100 dmg on his foe or starting a devastating SMG burst straight to the dome.

Having to manually decloak before being able to do anything usefull would be horrible, it’s already hard enough to not be noticed/hit someone moving before they notice you.[/quote]

Which is why I’ve never proposed manual decloak as a stand-alone change. It should be accompanied with actually invisible cloak instead of the “look at me I’m a walking mirage sticking out of scenery” we currently have, and/or quieter, even silent cloak.

To encourage actually using the cloak for positioning tool instead of “lemme put this on to soak some dmg and 100hp smack ya in the face” maneuver it is most efficently used now. Even better yet this change should be accompanied with secondary ability, like being under discussion here.

Getting merely rid of shield element, even if accompanied with less detectable cloak, just doesn’t feel right in my opinion since it still allows this kind of action. Which I feel is the reason Phantom, no matter how tweaked up or down, stomps and frustrates in public enviroment. Once that would be gone, he could be buffed to have actually usable tools etc. in order to make him competitively viable.

E: Which is why I’ve never ment to propose**. I thought I had stated need for actually useful, invisible cloak directly but you’re right in that it wasn’t clearly mentioned. Pardon me. Yes, manual decloak = allows 100% invis cloak without feeling bullcrap, not only nerfing cloak but also giving something for it.

(l2c) #35

I dunno, after playing today after the patch, I’m ready to give up on Phantom all together. Everyone spots me, outruns me, and can’t even one-shot snipers with chopper, what’s the point. With everyone using the new rotation mercs, it’s even worse. His one thing is to surprise attack, he can’t give ammo, health, not a mechanic, nothing, just surprise, and he’s really bad at it. Sorry, just tired of trying…
And tbh, no matter the rework, he’s bound to be a completely different animal, which isn’t what I bought :<