Terminal Rework Details

(Demolama) #21

Please boot up w:et and play mp_oasis. Find out what made that map balanced and worked better than the port you made for db called terminal.

Stop adding more chokepoints to all your maps. Your “there must always be a frontline” philosophy has made db maps into nothing but meat grinders, which kills off the replay value of all db maps. Side routes, crawling thru air vents, and other more sneaker means to get to the objective makes for better game play. Too many times when defense is outkilling the offense there is no other means for the attackers to get to the objective other than kill. Long defensive spawn camps are bad but currently there is nothing attackers can do when they are outgunned.

Dome was on the right path with the sewers, but when you removed the two gates on the first phase you turned a better offensive friendly pathway into an easier to defend meat grind. The gates should of just been like the wall on terminal that stayed open when blown and their route to them slightly shorter. This would make the initial fight over the gate but move the next wave back more towards the delivery point because the doors would have been harder to defend.

(Drac0rion) #22

Are you kidding me?
I find it actually funny that you’re here to point out to avoid chokepoints, while suggesting to balance around one of the worst default W:ET maps.

Seawall Battery was the worst meatgrind out of the 6 maps.

Siwa Oasis essentially had 3 routes between both objectives, two of those were always just two floors on top of eachother.

Gold Rush, while it did have areas you could hold as a chokepoint, it had too many routes to flank around without allowing the defense to really bunker down and hold their selected chokepoint. (Probably my favorite map due to the pacing set by double escort.)

Rail Gun was a fun and open map. Due to how open it was and also providing multiple routes, the defense didn’t really have any points to hold down heavily as chokepoints.

Würzburg Radar, the forward spawn was just a silly meatgrind until it was captured. You’d usually capture it right before the spawn timer and then actually fight out which side gets to hold it.
After that the only chokepoints were the first objective wall route and command center route. While the main route was wide, it simply didn’t provide any cover for the attackers when breaking through, so with a big cover advantage for the defenders I consider it bad chokepoint overall.

Fuel Dump was another very open map, a sniper paradise compared with the default maps. This was the only map that actually needed more obstacles since it barely had any chokepoints and up until the final objective none of them were really usable.

Oasis was garbage with nothing but tunnels of chokepoints up until you grabbed the forward spawn. Once you breached the first objective on Oasis it was back into 3 horrible chokepoints. Past the first objective, you were only able to eventually get through those chokepoint cause the defenders didn’t really have any decent cover to hold them.

Since nearly all conflicts in Dirty Bomb take place within cities, the best example to balance around is Gold Rush.
Gold Rush was a square type of map, the current version of Bridge really isn’t a successor to it simply cause it’s not designed to be a square type of map anymore and therefore we’ve gotten a more linear version which includes a few bad routes and some horrible chokepoints.

Chokepoints can be balanced by opening up new routes or with cover. The cover for holding a chokepoint vs the cover when breaching a chokepoint. The pacing of the map could be balanced around spawn locations.

The first objective for the new Dome is a great example (the right side at least).
Defenders can currently really bunker down in the warehouse while also keeping a few players across the main road for the lookout for left side doorway and crossfire. This way the defenders can really hold down the main route. But as soon as the generator is destroyed and the new paths open up, the defenders must fall back all the way under the MG to have any decent cover on that side while also having to worry about the opened window overlooking that position.

(Drac0rion) #23

The forward spawn system isn’t a bad concept, but it’s badly executed.
This is just for the pacing of the map to drag it out a little longer, so the attackers can’t just rush the objective and move to the end part of the map while also not allowing defense to really hold up the attackers that well until the first objective.
Instead there could be an additional “mini objective” for the attackers to complete to progress and earn themselves a new spawn.

The way for these “mini objectives” to work is to have the defenders first spawn to be closer to it, while all the spawns after it to be where they’d be for the first actual objective. So after the first spawn, the spawn locations would favor the attackers for the “mini objective”.
This would ensure that the defense can set themselves up and be prepared for the first encounter. Depending on the cover, this could already add a few minutes to the attackers time, while also utilizing a section of the map that otherwise might not see any action at all.

Since it is a “mini objective”, it shouldn’t require engineer advantage to complete it. In that case the same capturing method could be applied, but the defenders shouldn’t be able to recapture it. The best system for it in my opinion would be the Overwatch capture system (attackers can capture the area while being inside it, but the progress will be stopped when the enemy is also within the area).
If the attackers should have more at a disadvantage on capturing, interaction with the “mini objective” could be added. For example the capturing would require hacking, which would require one player to interact with it, turning what would otherwise be a 5vs5 firefight into a 4vs5.

This is why I love the escort maps as escorting as a system already sets a certain pacing while also adjusting the spawns accordingly. Every section of the map for the whole escorting path will be used and see action.
These maps literally can’t be rushed through, especially when compared to Underground where the whole map is possible to be completed in less than 2-3 minutes? Terminal really isn’t much better either, it just has one more C4 to plant at the last objective. Trainyard at least has 3 objectives as well as double delivery.

(Demolama) #24

I’m not saying the basic w:et maps were great, most of them were shit as you pointed out. In fact bridge is just like the community revised mp_goldrush, showing that for comp the basic w:et maps were not great. Still, Oasis and Goldrush were better than their db port. I mean I would loved to have told them to boot up rtcw and look at the standard maps in that game but sd didn’t make those, gray matter did. While sd did make some game of the year maps for rtcw, those were not very good. The only exception was mp_marketgarden, but that was a dual objective map.

(Outblast) #25

@Drac0rion said:
Are you kidding me?
I find it actually funny that you’re here to point out to avoid chokepoints, while suggesting to balance around one of the worst default W:ET maps.

I can’t agree with you there. I’m an admin on a W:ET server and Oasis has always been our 2nd most popular map right after Goldrush of course. What I think I really like about that map is that there is access behind the AT Guns which opened everything up and gave different opportunities to attack. Sadly i know this wont work because of the spawn point on defense in Terminal but that was my biggest disappointment when I first played terminal. Maybe instead of that gas tunnel that I always repair as engi and never use, another way directly opposite to the main entrance would be more beneficial.

As for the OP, I always welcome changes and I’m looking forward to trying it. If it fails, they can always go back. I think the change with Vault was a good one and it always seemed like it needed to be done.

(Demolama) #26

Oasis’s first phase also had water pumps to go under the wall so you could bypass it. It also had team doors that you could sneak through. So the hardest part of that first phase was always capturing and holding the flag because blowing the wall almost always came after control of the flag. Capturing and holding the flag was ultimately biggest problem of that first phase and that was mainly due to the insta-spawning in the same room as the flag.

Yet the flag in DB is less important. In fact I would argue it is easier to spawn camp defenders coming out of the first spawn than behind the wall.

(LIGHT_BAGHEERA) #27

@teflonlove said:
Thanks for removing the generator room.

I stopped counting how often I typed in chat on Terminal:

“Pro tip: the team that can hold the generator room the longest wins.”

It was awful how many players spent most of their time their, fiercely defending the generator without ever getting out of the room to take the forward spawn or plant.

Who holds MG room win imo, but will see those changes hoe thru effect the map

(Mc1412013) #28

You know, i remember it being said that original maps are in its final design and wouldnt get reworks only tweaks. So im guessing it was nexon that made that decision originaly.

Also are block out test maps no longer a thing in db.there No vault test map, im assuming there will be no castle test map.

(nokiII) #29

@Mc1412013 said:
You know, i remember it being said that original maps are in its final design and wouldnt get reworks only tweaks. So im guessing it was nexon that made that decision originaly.

Also are block out test maps no longer a thing in db.there No vault test map, im assuming there will be no castle test map.

Or maybe it’s because they now have a team 10 times the size they had in the nexon days?

(Outblast) #30

Is this still happening?

(Begin2018) #31

No, I hope they forgot…

(blufflord) #32

@Outblast said:
Is this still happening?

Of course, along with underground reworks as well (they made an thread for that today also)

(znuund) #33

@Begin2018 said:
No, I hope they forgot…

I hope not. First stage is super dumb.

(znuund) #34

-deleted

(GatoCommodore) #35

i hope they take into account to raise the ceilling height
its already pretty bad to jump around avoiding explosive spam or fight on cqc with fragger K121, i dont need the map to fight against me in the gunfight.

(Begin2018) #36

@znuund said:

@Begin2018 said:
No, I hope they forgot…

I hope not. First stage is super dumb.

I love it. At least Defenders have an objective too : Try to spawn kill :smiley: