will not ever get tired of saying the same. we need not simplified objects, but objects with real interaction and depth in them.
we knew exact seconds of bomb-disapper time (not charged by agressor) so that we could resp as an agressor get to the bomb and arm it ourselfs!
I agree. We don’t want “simple” objectives, this is a game about specialized ops, let there be specialied objectives. This could also be the right time to consider objectives with direct user interaction:
In addition, what about secondary objectives that are triggered at some point in the game and are optional ? They could enhance the importance of the main objectives and give more depth to the context of the game:
Also from what I have seen so far, canary wharf has a relevant and meaningful side objective (closing the doors on the final objective). Please add more of these nice side objectives because they are making the game great. Also for example in canary wharf on the first obj the elevator should be a reparable side objective to grant access to the balcony. Then there is no side obj at all between the two main objectives, which result in a tunnel meat grinding experience. Also, the elavator for the offense on the first stage couId be a repair done by the engineers/ hackable by a covie of the defense team. I love canary wharf because with such easy to add modifications it can become the best map we have at the moment.
Also why are the maps going so quickly to the art passes ? Wouldn’t it be more efficient to let us play into blockouts with cubes and default textures until the layouts are proven to be fun ? Maybe doing really fast iterations on real blockouts could be a win-win for SD and us, gamers.
also:
some things alrdy were present in rtcw/et/etqw. and please dont say it was difficult. (it took me 3 games to figure out the flyier-drone obj in volcano, and before etqw i played only singleplayer games…)
Just a thought about your note on movement. I enjoy the wall-jump while approaching the objective, and I’m curious about the long-jump possibilities. However, I would really enjoy the feeling of a slight boost in speed when holding the secondary weapon and yet another small boost in speed when holding the knife. I know we’re not going to get strafe-jumping back, but I really think this small change would feel great! Please try it out! We’ve already got different mercs that run at different speeds anyway. Besides, [VIDEO=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCBRzB2cMrw]everyone knows you run faster with a knife.[/VIDEO]
Just a thought about your note on movement. I enjoy the wall-jump while approaching the objective, and I’m curious about the long-jump possibilities. However, I would really enjoy the feeling of a slight boost in speed when holding the secondary weapon and yet another small boost in speed when holding the knife. I know we’re not going to get strafe-jumping back, but I really think this small change would feel great! Please try it out! We’ve already got different mercs that run at different speeds anyway. Besides, everyone knows you run faster with a knife.
We had this way back in alpha, I think it was removed to prevent that barrier to entry for newer players being that there is already plenty much to concern yourself with.
IIRC they bumped the primary weapon sprint speed upto the same level as the previous knife run speed and no-one really complained much, so I guess it wasn’t that badly missed.
I for one don’t miss needlessly having to switch weapons constantly then dying to a camper due to slow weapon switch times.
[QUOTE=Mustang;496184]IIRC they bumped the primary weapon sprint speed upto the same level as the previous knife run speed and no-one really complained much, so I guess it wasn’t that badly missed.
I for one don’t miss needlessly having to switch weapons constantly then dying to a camper due to slow weapon switch times.[/QUOTE]
Agree with this.
I have one suggestion that should make melee weapons more enjoyable to use, however, without the bad side effects that come with increasing melee weapon run speed: Make it so melee weapon attacks don’t interrupt sprint.
This!
To make an addition: Can it get easier than standing still, planting a C4 in your hands where the placement doesn’t matter at all?
If that is meant by ‘simplify our objectives’ than good night…
[QUOTE=BAMFana;496199]Agree with this.
I have one suggestion that should make melee weapons more enjoyable to use, however, without the bad side effects that come with increasing melee weapon run speed: Make it so melee weapon attacks don’t interrupt sprint.[/QUOTE]
Make it so nothing interrupts sprint.
At the very least allow reload while sprinting. It gets more and more upsetting as each patch comes along and this functionality isn’t added. Standing in quicksand while reloading is clumsy, pure and simple. You become a free kill. As if someone who is reloading and thus unable to fight back isn’t at enough of a disadvantage. I don’t even think SD has addressed their rationale for not adding it.
Currently, sprint is it’s own state during which nothing can be performed. It’s meant to be an active choice for players to be used getting quickly from A to B but not during any other action.
If we allow sprinting reloads, we need to start considering allowing sprint for other, simpler actions such as:
[ul]
[li]Melee Attacks[/li][li]Cooking Grenades[/li][li]Throwing Grenades[/li][li]Throwing Packs[/li][li]Pump/Bolt Action Between Shots[/li][/ul]
At that point, sprint is only really disallowed during firing and actively using abilities like defibs and targeting artillery. Also the inconsistencies become very hard to explain to the player, and sprinting becomes the default movement state nearly all the time.
If sprint is the default movement state, why force people to hold sprint? Why not just remove sprinting all together and increase the base run speed? This isn’t something we want to do as we feel that, for our target audience, players are hard enough to track during combat as it is. Also sprint only increases forward speed, we definitely don’t want our base movement state to have different speeds in different directions and we definitely don’t want players strafing any faster than they currently do.
Another sticking point is semi-automatic weapons. With sprinting reloads allowed, the only time the player can’t sprint is during the short time they fire each weapon, which becomes very jarring.
We’ve tested allowing sprinting reloads and item throwing internally and decided that we want it to remain a choice for getting to A to B and not something that is used during combat or any other interaction.
With that in mind we will be accentuating the sprinting state to separate it slightly further from combat usage while trying to maintain responsiveness of entering and exiting the state.
EDIT: Regarding melee in general, we are planning on having a large overhaul of how it works and not being able to catch people will be part of that. We’re just focussed on moving and shooting and universal character changes right now.
[QUOTE=Smooth;496244]Currently, sprint is it’s own state during which nothing can be performed. It’s meant to be an active choice for players to be used getting quickly from A to B but not during any other action.
If we allow sprinting reloads, we need to start considering allowing sprint for other, simpler actions such as:
[ul]
[li]Melee Attacks[/li][li]Cooking Grenades[/li][li]Throwing Grenades[/li][li]Throwing Packs[/li][li]Pump/Bolt Action Between Shots[/li][/ul]
At that point, sprint is only really disallowed during firing and actively using abilities like defibs and targeting artillery. Also the inconsistencies become very hard to explain to the player, and sprinting becomes the default movement state nearly all the time.
If sprint is the default movement state, why force people to hold sprint? Why not just remove sprinting all together and increase the base run speed? This isn’t something we want to do as we feel that, for our target audience, players are hard enough to track during combat as it is. Also sprint only increases forward speed, we definitely don’t want our base movement state to have different speeds in different directions and we definitely don’t want players strafing any faster than they currently do.
Another sticking point is semi-automatic weapons. With sprinting reloads allowed, the only time the player can’t sprint is during the short time they fire each weapon, which becomes very jarring.
We’ve tested allowing sprinting reloads and item throwing internally and decided that we want it to remain a choice for getting to A to B and not something that is used during combat or any other interaction.
With that in mind we will be accentuating the sprinting state to separate it slightly further from combat usage while trying to maintain responsiveness of entering and exiting the state.
EDIT: Regarding melee in general, we are planning on having a large overhaul of how it works and not being able to catch people will be part of that. We’re just focussed on moving and shooting and universal character changes right now.[/QUOTE]
There some issues that need a closer separate look, not “sprint in general”.
2+3 lead me to this:
reload low slow-down
melee attack very low slow-down (because this is soldier with a knife! why slow do)
weapon switch no slow-down
Cooking Grenades mid slow-down
Throwing Grenades slow-down
Throwing Packs very low slow-down
Pump/Bolt Action Between Shots (what is this i dunnolol) 
[QUOTE=Smooth;496244]Currently, sprint is it’s own state during which nothing can be performed. It’s meant to be an active choice for players to be used getting quickly from A to B but not during any other action.
If we allow sprinting reloads, we need to start considering allowing sprint for other, simpler actions such as:
[ul]
[li]Melee Attacks
[/li][li]Cooking Grenades
[/li][li]Throwing Grenades
[/li][li]Throwing Packs
[/li][li]Pump/Bolt Action Between Shots
[/li][/ul]
At that point, sprint is only really disallowed during firing and actively using abilities like defibs and targeting artillery. Also the inconsistencies become very hard to explain to the player, and sprinting becomes the default movement state nearly all the time.
If sprint is the default movement state, why force people to hold sprint? Why not just remove sprinting all together and increase the base run speed? This isn’t something we want to do as we feel that, for our target audience, players are hard enough to track during combat as it is. Also sprint only increases forward speed, we definitely don’t want our base movement state to have different speeds in different directions and we definitely don’t want players strafing any faster than they currently do.
Another sticking point is semi-automatic weapons. With sprinting reloads allowed, the only time the player can’t sprint is during the short time they fire each weapon, which becomes very jarring.
We’ve tested allowing sprinting reloads and item throwing internally and decided that we want it to remain a choice for getting to A to B and not something that is used during combat or any other interaction.
With that in mind we will be accentuating the sprinting state to separate it slightly further from combat usage while trying to maintain responsiveness of entering and exiting the state.
EDIT: Regarding melee in general, we are planning on having a large overhaul of how it works and not being able to catch people will be part of that. We’re just focussed on moving and shooting and universal character changes right now.[/QUOTE]
just allow sprint for everything? really… why is it that hard?
it pushes the flow of the game and also the skill when you can do multiple things in one action.
I’ll quote myself below for the main reasons. Basically if you can sprint and do everything then sprinting no longer become the choice, it becomes the default.
More choice means more depth and you have to think more about what your doing, rather than just hold a sprint key at all times.
[QUOTE=Smooth;496244]At that point, sprint is only really disallowed during firing and actively using abilities like defibs and targeting artillery. Also the inconsistencies become very hard to explain to the player, and sprinting becomes the default movement state nearly all the time.
If sprint is the default movement state, why force people to hold sprint? Why not just remove sprinting all together and increase the base run speed? This isn’t something we want to do as we feel that, for our target audience, players are hard enough to track during combat as it is. Also sprint only increases forward speed, we definitely don’t want our base movement state to have different speeds in different directions and we definitely don’t want players strafing any faster than they currently do.[/QUOTE]
Discussion on this is healthy as it can get us thinking again in different way, but at this point we’re very unlikely to change course.
PS. We also had a stamina bar for several months during development and it was highly disliked so we decided to make the move to unlimited sprint, which means we require other downsides to the state.
When the game slows me down when I reload I feel like it’s slapping me in the face. Certainly in every other game I’ve played where shooting + sprinting is not allowed reloading + sprinting is, so it’s noticeable, and generally you only reload when not under fire, and when not under fire you’re often moving from A to B and want to do so as quickly as possible.
However I completely accept the idea of not allowing shooting + sprinting, otherwise you’d never NOT sprint, and we would need a stamina bar to correct that, and I’d rather have a moments frustration at not being able to reload while sprinting than have to contend with a stamina bar.
I have to say, testing the game is a lot more fun now. It’s finally about the mercs rather than the mechanics.
As for movement. Very little seems to turn on the movement. It’s partially due to the difficulty and partially due to the limited opportunities.
Take ETQW’s slipgate African town. That place was a parkour wonderland for trick jumpers. Not because ETQW was particularly mobile, and the place didn’t seem particularly meant to be such a playground. And yet it was. There was something about having just the right geometry to allow for lots of creative paths to form.
Brink again, has no such thing. It’s easier to be mobile and yet (or probably because of the SMART) the variation of paths wasn’t high. The maps all had pre-designated places to do the SMART thing.
With Extraction it’s particularly important to be mindful of this. Maps should feel like Slipgate-africa and not like Aquarium. Players should feel like they’re discovering their own paths rather than jumping through hoops that were set for them.
Out of interest which games are you referring to? We usually do a reasonable amount of competitor analysis for all elements of our games and I don’t recall finding any that allowed this so it’d be really good to know which games you mean, can add them to the list then
Because walking is the default movement state currently ? I run all the time except when I get hit by a slowdown. You stay idle you die, you walk you lose the game. Running is the only option here and gives the fast-paced feeling. I’d be ok to get slowdowns only by firing or using an ability, or at least let us try it and give feedback.
I think the restrictions on sprint right now are fairly reasonable and I agree with Smooth’s reasoning behind them. One can always just switch weapons to run away rather than reloading, and that is already a fairly effective way to avoid damage and get to a position where it’s safe to reload. Allowing reload while sprinting would cause more problems than it solves in my opinion.
I look forward to seeing your solution, I’ll hold off on any further comments until then. I do think allowing melee attacks while sprinting is a nice way to improve their usability, and would help differentiate melee weapons from shotguns, but I can understand that you want to avoid opening Pandora’s box of sprint exceptions (so to say).