sry but whitechapel doesnt work


(1-800-NOTHING) #21

@Bloodbite

crap, was gonna edit to put more thoughtful stuff into that post…

i think agree with the whole lateral thinking bit - it’s very satisfying to be the guy going the other route on camden 2nd/3rd obj and pulling a slight pincer maneuver on a solid defensive hold, thus helping your teammates push through to the obj.

but to me that involves distinctly different options/routes. otherwise there’s no element of surprise and it kind of boils down to crossfires/who outguns whom.

i think whitechapel has some definite weak spots in that respect - several parts of the map are kind of wide open intersections where the only moves you can make (in terms of routes etc.) is moving through a crossfire or engaging in gunfights at long distance.
the first objective seems very much like that - sure you can move from spawn behind cover and reappear closer to the EV, but it can be a bit of a shooting gallery and there aren’t really any routes which allow attackers to flank defenders without first moving through open territory.
or the milkjug loading @ the church - attackers pretty much have to move through a guaranteed line of fire in order to do anything, so if defense can hold them at the ev and control/reinforce the lane/church crossfire it can get a bit stale in terms of offensive possibilities.
overall, i feel it’s a map that plays out very “statistically”, with less emphasis on creating/utilising windows of opportunity. (part of this is probably due to the somewhat automated nature of the EV/lift objs, though).

as for defining fun; you’re right, i didn’t. it is indeed highly subjective, but i think you may agree that some tactical scenarios are more fun than others.
it is perfectly possible to create a map where, if certain conditions arise, one team is going to find themselves plainly outgunned at the bottom of a meatgrinder. that’s not fun, i think.

whether it’s useful to draw a very final conclusion from just one horrible loss is another matter, though. :slight_smile:


(Bloodbite) #22

Unless of course it’s a situation where they HAVE to engage. It’s like that theatre full of hostages thing back in Chechnya I think… that one where the response team gassed the theatre in a “you either fully surrender or you die with your hostages” response… that’s the kind of thing most western nations would never have considered, not so openly anyways. Since our characters are all mercenaries, we have an open canvas, thematically, on common logic as it applies to self preservation.

Of course I mean it as an overall philosophy to the game’s design. Take that spec ops level of tactics too literally and we end up with a sim that is fun for 3% of people and brutally punishing to everyone else (although that could be good as I do enjoy watching people cry :tongue:).

[QUOTE=1-800-NOTHING;470462]
but to me that involves distinctly different options/routes. otherwise there’s no element of surprise and it kind of boils down to crossfires/who outguns whom.

i think whitechapel has some definite weak spots in that respect…

as for defining fun; you’re right, i didn’t. it is indeed highly subjective, but i think you may agree that some tactical scenarios are more fun than others.
it is perfectly possible to create a map where, if certain conditions arise, one team is going to find themselves plainly outgunned at the bottom of a meatgrinder. that’s not fun, i think.

whether it’s useful to draw a very final conclusion from just one horrible loss is another matter, though. :)[/QUOTE]

See all the problematic areas you’ve pointed out in the map, those things make me wonder how much of it is really based on balancing and mechanics pacing rather than the actual map design itself.

I haven’t had a chance to really test the game in a semi-proper match since all the characters were given universal objective abilities… but what I have tried of it changed the way I thought about moving around the map.

Here’s another idea. Consider the map as it is, raw geometry/layout completely unchanged. How much of the level’s props could be moved around to completely change the feel, purpose and pace of the battle? Significant props like barricades, points of cover (including vehicles), mounted weapons and so on?

And what about new things like humanoid barricades. I’m thinking more like elaborate tech based “doors”. Like normal everyday doors that can be opened and shut, though I’m very much against literal doors as they’re always wonky in FPS’s.

But being able to delay a pursuer or a flanking vulnerability by triggering an electrical barricade/shield. Something the enemy has to stop and “F” to turn off, which also has the potential to alert folks nearby that are paying attention to a subtle sound maybe?

I can’t see how electrical barricades fit into the story concept though… maybe sliding security grills? You get what I mean though.

Anyways, I’m not suggesting the map be completely overhauled as we still have yet to properly explore it with a solid understanding of the full complement of character abilities at our disposal (and to the team too). Just that I don’t think these map rant threads really consider the many other options that could be explored in changing things up. I know what you mean by the meatgrinder effect though… that again is hard to tell how much is due to the map and to, sometimes, some folks in this alpha that are logged in and just aren’t really paying attention enough to playing the match properly.


(zeroooo) #23

SD MUST know that their maps arent working :wink:

we keep on telling it them for 8 or 9 months now, on London Bridge, Waterloo and WhiteChappel nearly NOTHING!!! changed, they just dont give a **** about what we think xD

they wont change anything - and now its too late to change anything xD gg SD :slight_smile:


(Volcano) #24

let the hate flow through you


(Protekt1) #25

@zero eh not completely true. They made changes to each map… Kinda being a bit ignant there zero :stuck_out_tongue:


(1-800-NOTHING) #26

@Bloodbite

while i like the idea of contestible/side objective doors and barricades, i think they’d primarily work in parts of the map(s) where the basic geometry allows it to begin with ( -> multiple, segmented areas/routes). not sure about the extent to which the problem areas of WC can be fixed by tweaking spawns/travel time, either…

as much as my framerate is absolutely horrified by the idea: smoke grenades?


(zeroooo) #27

i wrote nearly no changes :smiley:

i know that they changed some things^^

but maps are still soooooooo bad :smiley:


(Rex) #28

Why should they still waste time for the first 3 maps instead of focusing on new ones?


(trickykungfu) #29

lololoololo RasteNub at his best…


(Protekt1) #30

[QUOTE=zeroooo;470487]i wrote nearly no changes :smiley:

i know that they changed some things^^

but maps are still soooooooo bad :D[/QUOTE]

I understand what nearly means and that isn’t the case. I’ve seen changes, often big changes, to many if not nearly all objectives on all maps… In fact, probably all objectives on all maps. Are they perfect yet? Obviously not. But to say they ignore us and change nearly nothing… far from the truth. And TBH when it comes down to it, they aren’t here to help us perfect our image of the game. We’re here to help perfect their image of the game.

All I am saying is that they are not beholden to every demand we make and moreover they have reality to deal with; they can’t work on every map forever since I they have to more or less move on to newer content at one point.


(k0k0nat) #31

Wow, wasnt it always the last stage which is/was totally wrong?

Never saw a team that could defend the objective in the last stage because there a so many obstacles. Its impossible to kill/gib your enemies before they just jump into the objective as a horde of medics.


(RasteRayzeR) #32

You haven’t seen my best yet :cool:

But still, even Potty said it a couple of times and I agree, we had some mad runs in White Chapel

EDIT : maybe you haven’t since you’re pretty new here …


(Volcano) #33

[QUOTE=k0k0nat;470496]Wow, wasnt it always the last stage which is/was totally wrong?

Never saw a team that could defend the objective in the last stage because there a so many obstacles. Its impossible to kill/gib your enemies before they just jump into the objective as a horde of medics.[/QUOTE]

yes last stage of WC has a very poor design


(RasteRayzeR) #34

[QUOTE=k0k0nat;470496]Wow, wasnt it always the last stage which is/was totally wrong?

Never saw a team that could defend the objective in the last stage because there a so many obstacles. Its impossible to kill/gib your enemies before they just jump into the objective as a horde of medics.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and for me it’s the only one that’s not working. I don’t know what happened in their team yesterday (lack of communication?), but I’ve never seen this kind of pawnage where we could spawn kill for a few minutes till they raged out of the game. I mean come on, I could stay at the MG on the bridge and almost no one tried to take me down while I was rolling like 2 or 3 kills with it…

Not sure the problem was map design yesterday, just saying


(acQu) #35

Whitechapel works very well on 2v2, 3v3. Everything above does result in meatgrind.

I once made a post about how to change the first stage of the map: http://forums.warchest.com/showthread.php/33743-White-Chapel-Feedback?p=445308&viewfull=1#post445308

If it should allow more than 3v3, i would make these changes. Especially the area where i propose a tunnel, it needs to be widened. It needs to be a house complex actually, where you can walk inside, with corridors.

Other than that, yeah, no side routes seem to be only working for anything below and 3v3. Otherwise it is just too much happening at one place. (other than side routes are imo also good for 3v3, they simply give more freedom and options, make the play more interesting)


(attack) #36

if by release the half amount of maps are not realy good than the game will fail!


(attack) #37

i still remeber a test of brink in a german game magazine, where this bottleneck points was one of the big critic points.


(acQu) #38

Yes, it is basically an open wide bottleneck with thousand of holes. That should be avoided. The level of exposure you have on some of the points is just incredible. It is just like you sit in a place and above you there are thousand holes from which enemies can shoot. Impossible to track every hole, when they are so many. These holes “aka the openess” in these bottleneck points need to be reduced, and more side routes need to be introduced. Of course, side routes with manageable level of exposure as well, no side routes which are open like some cheese :stuck_out_tongue:

It is a major problem. Of course, an argument could be: “well then don’t run into these points”. But imo then you need to address this in game-design of movement system aka make it more of a “cover-based game”, where you make movement slower, and maybe introduce some mechanic to shoot from cover, like lean + shoot.


(attack) #39

ok some more possible changes

this is a picture which shows the problem in the circles are the the defender main routes as an attacker you have no chance of creating a crossfire.

its like deathmatch which dont let tzhe better taktik win its pure aim and spam.dont get me wrong am should be important but not much more than taktik.


as addiditon maybe put a window in this area to let the attackers have a way on help their teammates with crossfire on the left side.im currently not sure if it could be also a big advantage for defenders .im not rly sure about that. only list it because its a small change.


as last ,a spawnchange for defenders with , a new objective .
the new spawn let the defenders have the choice to walk to the new way and they wouldnt be forced to come always from the same side. this is a feeling i have on this stage i cant rly descripe it. it feels like i move always to the right side. (i think i remember fendah written a close idea to this)
with creating a capable flag under the spawn , you give the 2nd stage an adeditional obj which force all action a little bit away from the tank and give the engis a bigger chance to repair and escort it without get shot from all sides.



(trickykungfu) #40

attack the map is broken the complete way to the last objective… SD has no time to fix that…