SPREAD pattern. (hit distribution inside the cone)

[Glottis-3D]

I’m actually talking about both, but I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not explaining it very well. I guess what I described as an “idealized line spread pattern” in my post would be better described as a recoil pattern, whereas the randomized deviation from that line is decided by the spread pattern. In any case, if the spread pattern is too wide, the recoil pattern becomes much less meaningful as the bullets will tend to spread out into an even distribution within a “cone of fire” rather than following the recoil pattern. Compare the CS:GO example I posted and the chart posted in the thread Smooth refers to in his post.

so the gun doesnt go further up is CS:GO?

[Ruben0s]

I think spread and stuff is only going to make a game harder for the casuals (harder because they will even hit less. I know that some new players in ET get around 15 acc. I wouldn’t be surprised if they get half of that in this game). Right now I can barely kill someone with a full magazine. Iron sight is useless compared to other games that have IS. The TTK is way to long and the hitboxes are really small (combine with the long ttk and I start to feel like a really bad player, because I can’t get a kill. And I’m sure that average joe will also get the feeling that he sucks balls in this game).

Anyway my aiming skills are gone with the wind when I stopped actively playing shooters. Now I’m looking for a game where I can just jump on get some kills and log off. The killing part is right now in xT to difficult. At least for me.

[Phandy]

This might help explain what BAMfana is talking about. http://twowordbird.com/articles/csgo-recoil-mechanics/
Its a good investigation into the CSGO recoil/mechanics. CS has a small amount of spread, but uses a mixture of recoil kick (the actual weapons bullets go up each time u fire a shot) and crosshair kick (where your crosshair moves to after each shot), mainly. Its a pretty great system imo, learning the weapons is a huge part of CS, but it fit that game.
Day of Defeat did something similar but used very little recoil kick, but lots of crosshair kick, so managing your crosshair was key there.
(I’m no expert) But the RTCW line of games had very little recoil and gun kick (except getting hit), so it was about more about managing movement than weapons themselves.

The idea is the same though, they are all systems to that decide where your bullets go and how a player manages that. It’s still relevant to some degree.
I’m not sure how recoil patterns would work in XT though, weapon recoil is so little, even on the move, it doesn’t take much to control it. You wouldn’t really have much management to do.

[Zarlor]

[QUOTE=spookify;490489]Great Post Totally agree!

Even Tapping or Bursting doesn’t seem to affect the spread which is the most frustrating! I am not getting the feel or the hit I think I should be getting especially with my play style which I feel is too ETish and I hit max spread right away.

Sprint Spread - Hip Fire needs to be toned down…

Played last night for one full hour 2 v 2 and it felt like all my kills were luck…[/QUOTE]

I was the guy who played with spookify for the hour the other night. We had some fun, but it was frustrating at the same time. I chalk it up to my poorer aiming skills if I miss usually, but I know for sure that I felt more in control of my shots with something like ETQW that xT right now. I feel as if I’m farting in their general direction to kill them right now. I try and use IS sometimes, but my aim and tracking goes to pot because the IS obscures so much of the screen that I lose the target if I try and aim for the head as they zig and zag, so I go for body shots so I can see them and all the while they are tracking me and I die. There’s almost never a good time to slow down for IS. In ETQW you could use it and tap a few accurate shots out at range. It felt like a viable option.

I also have trouble getting a sense for how much I’ve hurt them and how much they’ve hurt me. Sometimes I seem to get instakilled (and spookify felt like this a lot as well). Sometimes it seems like I’m getting the shots in, but the enemy isn’t hurt much. I DO like the new sounds for hits, but maybe a health bar would be useful on the enemy like ETQW? Other sounds are fantastic as well like the health packs being dropped, the APC tire sound, the footsteps -all top notch at this point. I love having a spawn timer on defense now too!!!

Looking forward to the changes you have in store with regards to gunplay.

[BAMFana]

Excellent post, Phandy, and that link is just what I was looking for while I was writing my posts, but couldn’t find due to insufficient google-fu skills. As you point out there are several different ways of designing these systems, the combination of different mechanics that control where the bullets go, and I agree that the CS system I describe in my post, in an attempt to make my point clear, isn’t necessarily a perfect fit for Extraction. What I’ve been trying to get at is that I think that the system currently used in Extraction is too randomized and I would like to see changes that make it more predictable and allow for more direct player control over where each bullet goes. One way to accomplish this, could be to somewhat reduce spread and increase recoil.

Edit: I should add that I don’t think the current system in Extraction is as terrible as some players make it out to be. I generally think the gunplay in Extraction is fairly enjoyable, especially compared to other contemporary first person shooters. I do, however, think there is room for improvement.

[attack]

[QUOTE=Phandy;490523]This might help explain what BAMfana is talking about. http://twowordbird.com/articles/csgo-recoil-mechanics/
Its a good investigation into the CSGO recoil/mechanics. CS has a small amount of spread, but uses a mixture of recoil kick (the actual weapons bullets go up each time u fire a shot) and crosshair kick (where your crosshair moves to after each shot), mainly. Its a pretty great system imo, learning the weapons is a huge part of CS, but it fit that game.
Day of Defeat did something similar but used very little recoil kick, but lots of crosshair kick, so managing your crosshair was key there.
(I’m no expert) But the RTCW line of games had very little recoil and gun kick (except getting hit), so it was about more about managing movement than weapons themselves.

The idea is the same though, they are all systems to that decide where your bullets go and how a player manages that. It’s still relevant to some degree.
I’m not sure how recoil patterns would work in XT though, weapon recoil is so little, even on the move, it doesn’t take much to control it. You wouldn’t really have much management to do.[/QUOTE]

dont forget this game have no IS.(i never give up my resistance.)

[Anti]

[QUOTE=potty200;490517]The spread on the first 3-4 bullets seems fine. The increase in spread over a short time is too high and the MAX spread of every gun in the game is far too high. Using statistics from the last couple of cups, I would rather see more people with 45%+ Acc. People would be rewarded with skill and experience this way. The current state of spread is one of the key reasons I do not find the game fun to play.

In short. Lower max spread. increase time it takes to get to max spread. (For all guns)[/QUOTE]

From our tests over the course of the alpha spread improvements are unlikely to see the size of change you’re talking about, that would require bigger hit boxes, which is something we’re still considering.

[Smooth]

Indeed, the spread spread reductions we’ve introduced over the course of the alpha and beta have had very little impact on player accuracy.

Actually the biggest change was when we increased player movement speeds back around October, that resulted in quite a noticeable drop.

[shaftz0r]

my biggest issue currently is the drop in registration. crosshair will be directly on someone and registration just stops after a few bullets. this is most noticeable with skyhammer and sawbones

[Protekt1]

[QUOTE=spookify;490513]But xT is a lot more run and gun and tracking players to kill then BF3. The running spread is to high in comparison. You give it the feel of ET but when you strafe you get nothing. I think the spread as you talk about works for BF3 because it takes half the shots to kill someone in BF3 then XT plus arent the XT hit boxes smaller then BF3?

So you are making everything harder, tighter and more random but not tweaking the other variables to makes up for this. THIS is why we the players are getting this lucky or random feel when we play.[/QUOTE]

The spread for bf doesn’t work for bf. I’ve hated it the moment I got my hands on that game. BLR had better spread than bf even before they redid everything to have a set spread and no growth, but more recoil. It worked better for BLR for some reason. Probably the longer TTK, since you had to get 2-3 headshots or 4-8 bodyshots depending on weapon vs armor.

At least in XT when you ADS you hit what you are aiming at.

All SD needs to work on is the hipfire. It isn’t as bad as people make it out to be, but it isn’t quite what should ship. I could see them revamping it and making it work out a lot better. Smaller max spread and/or smaller spread growth is what I’d like to see and have been asking for for a while

[QUOTE=Phandy;490523]This might help explain what BAMfana is talking about. http://twowordbird.com/articles/csgo-recoil-mechanics/
Its a good investigation into the CSGO recoil/mechanics. CS has a small amount of spread, but uses a mixture of recoil kick (the actual weapons bullets go up each time u fire a shot) and crosshair kick (where your crosshair moves to after each shot), mainly. Its a pretty great system imo, learning the weapons is a huge part of CS, but it fit that game.
Day of Defeat did something similar but used very little recoil kick, but lots of crosshair kick, so managing your crosshair was key there.
(I’m no expert) But the RTCW line of games had very little recoil and gun kick (except getting hit), so it was about more about managing movement than weapons themselves.

The idea is the same though, they are all systems to that decide where your bullets go and how a player manages that. It’s still relevant to some degree.
I’m not sure how recoil patterns would work in XT though, weapon recoil is so little, even on the move, it doesn’t take much to control it. You wouldn’t really have much management to do.[/QUOTE]

I think the crosshair kick gives a lot more feedback to the player that at least for me is essential to my enjoyment. CS wore off for me after RTCW and ET cause of that.

I think for CS the system is fine since movement is pretty slow and kill shots are typically 1-2 shots to the head. I don’t think recoil patterns are fit for a game with a faster pace and longer ttk. And even the CS patterns have randomness, starting with which pattern it fires off and where the bullet lands precisely. This typically is only important after the 2nd or 3rd shot depending on the weapon so in some or even most engagements the kill is scored already or the guy is so low you only need 1-2 random hits. So even if you had a system like this you would still be burst shotting for maximum accuracy anyway.

I wouldn’t mind if they added more crosshair kick to ADS when hipfire accuracy is increased.

[prophett]

Don’t change xhair kick, don’t change recoil.

Reduce max spread and time it takes to reach max apread.

[spookify]

[QUOTE=Smooth;490538]Indeed, the spread spread reductions we’ve introduced over the course of the alpha and beta have had very little impact on player accuracy.

Actually the biggest change was when we increased player movement speeds back around October, that resulted in quite a noticeable drop.[/QUOTE]

Faster players harder to hit. Notice rubberbanding and warping a lot more. More advanced movement will make this even more difficult to hit.

I really really love how you are taking our feedback! This is all going to work great in the end!

[spookify]

[QUOTE=prophett;490553]Don’t change xhair kick, don’t change recoil.

Reduce max spread and time it takes to reach max apread.[/QUOTE]

The Max Spread and Max Time is the most noticable on ARTY. His single shot should be right on however as soon as you pull the trigger a little to fast, move or sprint shoot then its gg…

The reward for standing still I dont like. I dont like the fact that If I am sprint up behind someone while they are standing still I cant insta kill them while running at them. I almost need to stop and 3 - 6 dink them and start running again that is BS…

If I am running up behind someone I want to down them not give them a chance to turn around. They should be dead! I am not talking a huge distance either! Running up behind people standing still aiming right at the head for me still doesnt produce a 3 dink like ET and downing someone. Dumb…

[INF3RN0]

I like CS but it’s not centered around fast paced movement. Sure there should be an advantage for a guy standing still iron sighted in xT vs one running and shooting from the hip, but it’s a situational trade off- where as in CS it’s really more of a requirement to not be moving. I don’t entirely mind the guns as they are atm because you really just need a feel for picking your engagements and knowing when to alternate from the hip to ironsight.

What I think might work well is to be able to consistently shoot from the hip up to a certain distance, rather than shooting from the hip at all times or having to swap to ironsight from hold fire out of necessity. I’d rather have a more consistent spread in hip that is limited primarily by the distance from a target when hold firing, and can be overcome by either tap firing/bursting from the hip at longer ranges, furthered by crouching/idle, or simply swapping to ironsights. Also, I still find most weapons to have absurdly low recoil as well.

[Smooth]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;490560]I like CS but it’s not centered around fast paced movement. Sure there should be an advantage for a guy standing still iron sighted in xT vs one running and shooting from the hip, but it’s a situational trade off- where as in CS it’s really more of a requirement to not be moving. I don’t entirely mind the guns as they are atm because you really just need a feel for picking your engagements and knowing when to alternate from the hip to ironsight.

What I think might work well is to be able to consistently shoot from the hip up to a certain distance, rather than shooting from the hip at all times or having to swap to ironsight from hold fire out of necessity. I’d rather have a more consistent spread in hip that is limited primarily by the distance from a target when hold firing, and can be overcome by either tap firing/bursting from the hip at longer ranges, furthered by crouching/idle, or simply swapping to ironsights. Also, I still find most weapons to have absurdly low recoil as well.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much spot on

[spookify]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;490560]I like CS but it’s not centered around fast paced movement. Sure there should be an advantage for a guy standing still iron sighted in xT vs one running and shooting from the hip, but it’s a situational trade off- where as in CS it’s really more of a requirement to not be moving. I don’t entirely mind the guns as they are atm because you really just need a feel for picking your engagements and knowing when to alternate from the hip to ironsight.

What I think might work well is to be able to consistently shoot from the hip up to a certain distance, rather than shooting from the hip at all times or having to swap to ironsight from hold fire out of necessity. I’d rather have a more consistent spread in hip that is limited primarily by the distance from a target when hold firing, and can be overcome by either tap firing/bursting from the hip at longer ranges, furthered by crouching/idle, or simply swapping to ironsights. Also, I still find most weapons to have absurdly low recoil as well.[/QUOTE]

Ironsights in this game will need to be much more situational IMO for this game to take off. We have lost all my friends already because 50% of them refuse to use Ironsights and the other just didnt like the game/gun/map play… Reduce fall off damage on Ironsights with a little better spread and recoil control but dont do anything crazy!

I would like to see a crouch hip fire and a standing ironsight player have an equal chance to kill each other…

[Glottis-3D]

I’d rather have a more consistent spread in hip that is limited primarily by the distance from a target when hold firing, and can be overcome by either tap firing/bursting from the hip at longer ranges, furthered by crouching/idle, or simply swapping to ironsights.

agree with zis

[spookify]

Pretty much spot on

Smooth or any SD I have a question about SLI… As you are aware I have been complaining about hit reg or the odd/lucky/warping/rubberbannind feel do you think this might be because I am running SLI??

INF3RN0 mentioned this in another post that there might be a problem with SLI…

I have oneframe off always now…

Should I be testing with SLI off or anything else off or set to a certain value?

EDIT: Also when is netclient and netspeed going to be locked or any other tweak that can throw off testing and give a huge advantage to another player??

[Smooth]

As far as I know, SLI requires a little driver support from the nvidia before it’s guaranteed to work properly, I don’t think we’re doing anything there until release/open beta.

I guess there’s a chance it could introduce a little more input delay but then again I’m not a [strike]doctor[/strike] graphics programmer.

EDIT: Now back to bullet spread…

[Glottis-3D]

Lets keep on topic!