So....let's make things simpler, shall we? (Spawn Timers and Spawn Times)

(Amerika) #21

[quote=“Dox;189812”]Well the other problem is half of the spawn traps involve being able to see them spawn. Even if you weren’t sure you could simply keep an eye on them. Defenders on Underground is a good example for this. People often peek over the top of the escalators to see which side the enemies are going to come up and time the nade for when they reach the top. I don’t see how they can physically stop that.

But yeah there’s no harm in removing the teams icons and altering the spawn wave timers. [/quote]

That means you might have to be out of position a bit on some maps and actually push up. They might see you and they might get tipped off that you’re there and not fall for what you’re doing. There is some counter-play involved and some risk involved with that.

(HunterAssassin5) #22

you know what i want? for defenders to spawn IMMEDIATELY when they lose an earlier point.

the bit about getting an audio cue when your team spawns is a good idea, though knowing when the other team’s spawnwave is is not.

(Dawnlazy) #23

[quote=“Amerika;189809”]looking at a timer and hedging your bet on routes taken and using abilities in hopes that you get people with little risk to yourself isn’t playing instinctual or a well laid out plan. It’s easily one of the least skillful things in this game. It’s as bad as the “set nades” in Call of Duty 1.

I don’t see how anybody could enjoy this at all when playing.[/quote]

Timing the movement of your opponents around the map in general is important knowledge, so how is timing it from spawn a “lesser” aspect of it? The way I see it Objective throws too much control in the hands of the spawn timer gods; for instance, in that last part of Bridge, putting opponents on longspawn before the building opens up has a huge importance, so much that you might want to delay killing them for a slim amount of time (and thus risk not killing them at all), but in Objective servers it always feels like it depends on which teams gets the spawn timer blessing as to whether the attackers or the defenders can get inside first. I’m not even saying that the spawn timer necessarily has to stay as it is currently in SW, some people have made arguments for offset timers and whatnot, but I’ll take it anytime over OBJ’s randomness, in my opinion there should be a way to time when you expect enemies to arrive from their spawn or when it’s a good time to push because you might put them in a longspawn.

(Herr_Hanz) #24

[quote=“Amerika;189809”][quote=“Dawnrazor;189796”][quote=“Amerika;189744”]The spawn timers in OBJ are way less cheesy than in SW. The spawn timers are part of why I sometimes really dislike SW. There is absolutely no reason for spawn timers to not be offset and be somewhat random so that you can’t grenade their spawn routes or use area denial tactics extremely easily. Lining up a Fragger grenade based on a certain time and a common route is easily one of the dumbest things in this game yet it’s a feature of the most competitive mode. I will never ever understand this design decision as there is nothing good about it…unless you love getting unearned kills and don’t mind cheap deaths.

It’s one thing to react to an incoming spawn by using your abilities. It’s another thing entirely to have a set play based on exact times of common routes that are mostly fire and forget and are designed to be done with little risk and little chance for avoidance.[/quote]

You can do the same in OBJ though, just press Tab to see when the opponents respawn and then time it mentally as soon as one of their portraits refreshes. And aside from spawnkills, I think that it’s one of the more interesting features of SW, being able to look at the timer and instictively predict where most of your opponents should be depending on which route they took, something which in OBJ mode annoys me since unless I’m specifically looking out for their respawn with the aforementioned method it can mean people randomly appearing in the least expected places and ruining carefully thought out plays.[/quote]

It’s as bad as the “set nades” in Call of Duty 1.[/quote]

Somebody that remembers CoD 1! shiny on you unicorn! good old days.

i didnt know the timers between stopwatch and objective are different. how are they different?

(MisterBadmin) #25

@Herr_Hanz
Stopwatch spawntimes are synced. When attackers get a wave of reinforcements, so do the defenders.

Objective spawntimes are not synced, unless the server is full at the start of the game and nobody leaves. The spawntimer is dependent on the enemy teamsize. In a 1vs8, the loner has a respawn timer that starts at 3 seconds (IIRC) whereas the team has a 24 second timer. When someone joins, the duo gets a 6 second timer and the team still has a 24 second timer.

I haven’t stared at the spawn timer as someone joins, but I assume that time isn’t added to the running timer, but added to the next one. That is what causes the desync in spawntimes.

(Herr_Hanz) #26

[quote=“MisterBadmin;189861”]@Herr_Hanz
Stopwatch spawntimes are synced. When attackers get a wave of reinforcements, so do the defenders.

Objective spawntimes are not synced, unless the server is full at the start of the game and nobody leaves. The spawntimer is dependent on the enemy teamsize. In a 1vs8, the loner has a respawn timer that starts at 3 seconds (IIRC) whereas the team has a 24 second timer. When someone joins, the duo gets a 6 second timer and the team still has a 24 second timer.

I haven’t stared at the spawn timer as someone joins, but I assume that time isn’t added to the running timer, but added to the next one. That is what causes the desync in spawntimes.[/quote]

Weird, i thought that that also happened in stopwatch. thanks for explaining.

(kopyright) #27

Yeah, that would be great - especially on Bridge’s last objective you wouldn’t even have to respawn after a team wipe to try and defend the second objective which is already out of reach with the current timers. Nice way to save a keypress.

(Black) #28

@Watsyurdeal The defenders should always have a shorter respawn time to give them a home field advantage and time to set up defense in which they should have. (similar to overwatch. attacker’s can’t come out until defenders get a few seconds to position.) This mechanic seems to fall flat on it’s face on chapel since attackers are able to get to the ev before the defends are able to.

As @Amerika said, SW makes it real easy to spawn camp areas and calculate frag’s.
Now there’s a several ways to fix this, each have their pros and cons, however I’m unsure which change if we need any at all would be the best.

For me I think the best course of action is just to remove spawn timers all together. Only you can see your own timer, but not the enemies. Also make sure in the execution HUD showing all the mercs that it does not “blink” or “refresh” showing they have re spawned.

(Amerika) #29

[quote=“Herr_Hanz;189855”]It’s as bad as the “set nades” in Call of Duty 1.

Somebody that remembers CoD 1! shiny on you unicorn! good old days.

i didnt know the timers between stopwatch and objective are different. how are they different?

[/quote]

Not sure if you competed in CAL but I was CAL|MikeMo and I ran smf>> I am also, sadly, the person responsible for pitching/pushing CoD 1 as a CPL game to Angel which was successful. So, despite my dislike for that game/series, I am partially responsible for some of it’s esports history. I’ve been trying to make up for it ever since :slight_smile:

[quote=“Dawnrazor;189829”][quote=“Amerika;189809”]looking at a timer and hedging your bet on routes taken and using abilities in hopes that you get people with little risk to yourself isn’t playing instinctual or a well laid out plan. It’s easily one of the least skillful things in this game. It’s as bad as the “set nades” in Call of Duty 1.

I don’t see how anybody could enjoy this at all when playing.[/quote]

Timing the movement of your opponents around the map in general is important knowledge, so how is timing it from spawn a “lesser” aspect of it? The way I see it Objective throws too much control in the hands of the spawn timer gods; for instance, in that last part of Bridge, putting opponents on longspawn before the building opens up has a huge importance, so much that you might want to delay killing them for a slim amount of time (and thus risk not killing them at all), but in Objective servers it always feels like it depends on which teams gets the spawn timer blessing as to whether the attackers or the defenders can get inside first. I’m not even saying that the spawn timer necessarily has to stay as it is currently in SW, some people have made arguments for offset timers and whatnot, but I’ll take it anytime over OBJ’s randomness, in my opinion there should be a way to time when you expect enemies to arrive from their spawn or when it’s a good time to push because you might put them in a longspawn.[/quote]

I’m not sure I was very clear. I don’t want the spawns to be random. I just want them to be plus or minus a couple of seconds randomly. So the spawn times would still be predictable and near your own but not predictable enough to time an exact grenade reliably without extra information. So when your team’s spawn timer is up it means theirs will be up within a second or two or it already happened a second or two ago or they matched. This would be enough small randomness to keep people from easily cheesing while not making the match flow be random based on the luck of spawn times.

(Apofenas) #30

You know how luck works in DB, right? Imagine how angry you would be to get 35 sec respawn even once. And how mad you would become if you get it 2,3,4 times in a row?

(Herr_Hanz) #31

[quote=“Amerika;189899”][quote=“Herr_Hanz;189855”]It’s as bad as the “set nades” in Call of Duty 1.

Somebody that remembers CoD 1! shiny on you unicorn! good old days.

i didnt know the timers between stopwatch and objective are different. how are they different?

[/quote]

Not sure if you competed in CAL but I was CAL|MikeMo and I ran smf>> I am also, sadly, the person responsible for pitching/pushing CoD 1 as a CPL game to Angel which was successful. So, despite my dislike for that game/series, I am partially responsible for some of it’s esports history. I’ve been trying to make up for it ever since :slight_smile:
[/quote]

unfortunetly i was a pubber going into random servers in CoD1. but hey i was 6-8 years old from EU and playing and american servers. :wink: thinking lag was part of the game. i didnt even know what lag was. i only remember playing with 2 primary weapons. and having a purple dot as a crosshair + a weird hitmarker thing. all those things were modded, but idk how and when. i just gamed. *most of it was actually on CoD 1 United Offensive oops

CoD 4 i played on CTX Hardcore Broadcast server (no marty/last stand), CTX something something (backlot, crash, and 3 other maps), and KOS Hardcore broadcast. i didnt even know what hardcore meant i just played XD. although i do remember having ammo counts so idk if it was an actual hardcore server.

(Amerika) #32

Off-topic but I really dislike “Hardcore” mods for games. The name isn’t fitting because it’s anything but hardcore in gameplay. @Dox was forced to read how much I disliked that particular game mod the other night haha.

(Equanimity) #33

At least in the older battlefield games ‘hardcore mode’ was actually pretty hardcore. No hud, no indicators, super low ttk. I enjoyed it a lot in BFBC2.

(Herr_Hanz) #34

the CoD 4 server was the Hardcore mode i believe, not a mod. people with less health and no hud.

i just remembered i had videos of it on Xfire. went to search and it turns out xfire has shut down. now im sad.

[spoiler]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMqdIQCXZ0

really bad video of the server, not my footage[/spoiler]

EDIT:
[spoiler]i just found out why i was confused. after i got banned from the CTX server for advertizing a made up clan, i went to another server. which wasnt hardcore, without me realizing it XD explains why i remember checking the p90 ammo count while that isnt available on hardcore servers. (i got unbanned later but through a glitch everytime the server restarted i would be banned again, so i had to be unbanned after every server reset, so i left)

other server i played at, not my footage[/spoiler]

(montheponies) #35

@Apofenas said:
You know how luck works in DB, right? Imagine how angry you would be to get 35 sec respawn even once. And how mad you would become if you get it 2,3,4 times in a row?

RTCW beach had a 40s def spawn and 30s attacker. It was the best map by far. If you got caught on a long spawn, then that was the penalty for lacking awareness (lots more \kills used then).

Also attacking a defense was a matter of choosing the time when it would make most sense - ie. when the defense were just about to tick over for a long spawn, or conversely ahead of your own spawn so if the attack failed u werent out for 30s.

My view is that defenses should crumble on SW, nothing more frustrating than wiping out the entire defense only for them to spawn and rush back - it’s meant to be a fast paced SW match not a war of attrition - chapel is an excellent example, you basically need to wipe and then spawnrape to get those two feckin stupid milk jugs delivered…horrible mechanics and stupid map layout…

Anyway I’d go with desyncing spawntimers - even though decent teams will figure out the spawntime within a couple of spawns (mebbe less so on pubs). I’d also remove the status of the opposing team in terms of who’s live, revivable and out completely - just giving too much information away.

Final point, you can stagger your spawn by just not spawning in…

(montheponies) #36

RTCW beach had a 40s def spawn and 30s attacker. It was the best map by far. If you got caught on a long spawn, then that was the penalty for lacking awareness (lots more \kills used then).

My view is that defenses should crumble on SW, nothing more frustrating than wiping out the entire defense only for them to spawn and rush back - it’s meant to be a fast paced SW match not a war of attrition - chapel is an excellent example, you basically need to wipe and then spawnrape to get those two feckin stupid milk jugs delivered…horrible mechanics and stupid map layout…

anyway I’d go with desyncing spawntimers - but dont kid yourself within one or two spawns the other team will have it (mebbe less so on pubs).

As it stands you can stagger your spawn by just not spawning in - so that 1 or 2s delay you think will help is already in your control.