SMART in Hindsight - Exedore @ GDC Europe

(Sanch3z) #21

hell yeah UT games and player movement rules… Combine the slides and ledge grabbing of Brink with the player movement of UT games and you have a winner…

(GreasedScotsman) #22

http://gamescom.gamespot.com/story/6328956/brink-strayed-too-far-from-convention-says-designer

“Americans prize individualism a lot more, this [kind of class-based team multiplayer] didn’t catch on as much over there as it did here [in Europe]. I don’t mean to slander them all, though. Some absolutely love it.”

Being one of those that “absolutely love it,” I’ve been silent over much of Brink’s downfall, but this is just an utter cop out and disconnect from the realities of Brink’s shortcomings.

Further, his “take-away” about SMART is completely wrong. SMART isn’t under-used in combat situations because it’s hard to remember in the insanity of the moment. SMART is not confusing/difficult to use. Worse, the assumption that we players are somehow lazy baffles me considering (at least in the PC crowd) I can think of players who have (collectively) literally spent thousands of hours mastering even a tiny facet of a game (Quake 3 trick jumps, for example). Further, for Brink itself, I’d counter by saying, “QuakeCon competitors are anything but lazy,” and the notion is insulting to their skill, time and the effort put specifically into Brink… which, I dare say, was far more dedicated and thorough than the QA testers assigned to route out bugs on any of the 3 platforms. THOSE players might fit the label of “lazy” given the glaring problems that somehow escaped unnoticed.

Put simply, SMART isn’t used because it’s completely ineffective as a combat tool unless you’re playing against bots or complete noobs who can’t aim worth a piss. It is wonderfully effective as a travel tool, but given the game’s movement height/range/speed limitations and the fact that maps were not designed with it in mind as a combat tool, Mr. Alphonso gets it 100% wrong.

Alphonso speculated that, in places, Brink’s innovations took it too far from what players were accustomed to. “In hindsight, we perhaps strayed too far from convention in some key areas. We’re taking a lot of these lessons on board for our future projects.”

If those are the lessons learned, I predict SD’s next title will be DOA. Brink’s sales were solid only because of the studio’s previous track record and anticipation of what was advertised. However, given the current player retention, it’s fair to say Brink did not deliver. The fanbase they relied on will not be there to preorder the next title.

This realization saddens me because I still load up Brink every now and then and pine for what could have been.

(tangoliber) #23

While I agree with what you write GreasedScotsman, I wish that you wouldn’t sound offended over comments made in this talk. I really doubt that Exedore thinks that the competitive players are lazy, and I don’t think that you really believe he does either.

Please, let’s forgive some poor word choice…and not read too much into his comments about lessons learned.

(INF3RN0) #24

Yep.

[QUOTE=GreasedScotsman;371566]
If those are the lessons learned, I predict SD’s next title will be DOA. Brink’s sales were solid only because of the studio’s previous track record and anticipation of what was advertised. However, given the current player retention, it’s fair to say Brink did not deliver. The fanbase they relied on will not be there to preorder the next title. [/QUOTE]

And yep. I just hope that either the proud denial or misconception regarding Brink as a “misunderstood” game passes and we see some of the classic game play return. Next time I would even go as far as to suggest a well-planned community beta as well.

(GreasedScotsman) #25

[QUOTE=tangoliber;371568]While I agree with what you write GreasedScotsman, I wish that you wouldn’t sound offended over comments made in this talk. I really doubt that Exedore thinks that the competitive players are lazy, and I don’t think that you really believe he does either.

Please, let’s forgive some poor word choice…and not read too much into his comments about lessons learned.[/QUOTE]

I’m not offended, rather, I’m fearful that SD does not understand how and why their game has struggled with player retention. Sales are one thing, and I’m ecstatic that the Bethesda hype train was on track such that SD was able to sell enough copies to be viable for another title. However, from various stats I’ve seen, the PC crowd remaining today is less than 1% of those sales totals. Brink fares a bit better on consoles, but the same problem of low player retention exists compared to the sales numbers for those platforms.

Brink is also a singular phenomenon of a recent mutiplayer title shedding well over the majority of its installbase even before a strong competitor might be to blame for the exodus.

So, when I read “strayed too far from convention,” I wonder which “convention” he’s referencing. If it’s the low-spread, large pools of HP, high-aiming-skilled and fast-movement-focused FPS convention that was present in SD’s previous works, that’s fine. However, my suspicion is that he’s referring to COD-like games which employ high spread to lower the skill ceiling, a plodding pace, and situations where movement is pretty much a non-factor once the trigger is pulled. Given some of the retorts I’ve seen from him on these forums, it’s likely the latter, which is why I made my foreboding statement about SD’s next title.

(nephandys) #26

@Greased - At no point do I think Exe was discussing using SMART for the purpose of combat. I think he was only discussing it as a tool for movement. I think he was saying that players don’t use it as a movement tool due to all the things going on at once not that this is a reason it’s not used in combat. I don’t agree with his point necessarily, but there’s probably some people out there that don’t use it for this reason.

With this in mind, go join a random pub server and watch people move around the map. 99% of players I see simply run to objectives they never make use of the SMART system (your observations may be different due to fewer people playing on PC vs. 360 - maybe more “pros” are playing on pc, w/e). It’s not because SMART wouldn’t be a superior method to travel (with a light) but because in the majority of games out there that’s simply how you travel. Regardless of your feelings about it, SMART is something new to a lot of players and the majority of players are not hard core competition people. With this in mind, my next point…

I don’t think he was ever referring to competitive players, but rather speaking about the players of the game in general. Therefore, he’s probably referring to the majority of the players playing the game. At least 90% of those players (probably even more) are not competitive PC players so why would he even be talking about them? To be really honest, the majority of players aren’t even PC players much less competitive so maybe he was really referring to all the people on console where all of his hypotheses seem to make a lot more sense considering the popularity of titles like COD, Halo, etc. on said platforms.

(wolfnemesis75) #27

[QUOTE=GreasedScotsman;371711]I’m not offended, rather, I’m fearful that SD does not understand how and why their game has struggled with player retention. Sales are one thing, and I’m ecstatic that the Bethesda hype train was on track such that SD was able to sell enough copies to be viable for another title. However, from various stats I’ve seen, the PC crowd remaining today is less than 1% of those sales totals. Brink fares a bit better on consoles, but the same problem of low player retention exists compared to the sales numbers for those platforms.

Brink is also a singular phenomenon of a recent mutiplayer title shedding well over the majority of its installbase even before a strong competitor might be to blame for the exodus.

So, when I read “strayed too far from convention,” I wonder which “convention” he’s referencing. If it’s the low-spread, large pools of HP, high-aiming-skilled and fast-movement-focused FPS convention that was present in SD’s previous works, that’s fine. However, my suspicion is that he’s referring to COD-like games which employ high spread to lower the skill ceiling, a plodding pace, and situations where movement is pretty much a non-factor once the trigger is pulled. Given some of the retorts I’ve seen from him on these forums, it’s likely the latter, which is why I made my foreboding statement about SD’s next title.[/QUOTE]Lately on Console we’ve seen a resurgence of new players and many attempt to play Brink like this with similar techniques that are successful in COD, so you may indeed be right that the convention is the standard that COD has created for how a FPS game should play. Staying far back and fighting at long range or camping a spot. Lately, since the DLC we face this more times than not, unless lucky enough to run into pre-DLC Brink players. For example on Labs: (This is happening a lot on all maps lately) There were groups of enemy setting up shop in the bottom room that nobody goes into (and there is very little reason to) with mines and turrets to keep you from access to the room, even though our primary obj is to plant the HE. So we plant the HE and they are still camped in the room and there’s no reason for us to go in there at all!

(gooey79) #28

I don’t think it’s an unfair assumption to say that lots of people who purchased Brink were drawn in by SMART as much as they were by the art style etc etc.

With that said, I find it hard pushed to believe ‘people are lazy’ is the reason SMART doesn’t appear to be used as much as Splash Damage anticipated.

I may well be barking up the wrong tree but it feels a little like saying ‘the game’s perfect, it’s the players that are broken’. And that couldn’t be further from the truth.

(tokamak) #29

I may well be barking up the wrong tree but it feels a little like saying ‘the game’s perfect, it’s the players that are broken’. And that couldn’t be further from the truth.

It certainly reads like that and considering the main goal of this title, it’s pretty painful to read. “We set out to bring ET to the masses, but you know, turns out these masses are just really crappy players”

I don’t think he was ever referring to competitive players, but rather speaking about the players of the game in general.

It remains a cop out. The most horrendous measures have been pushed through under the guise of making the game more accessible. To then say that the game wasn’t accessible enough for ‘the players in general’ is completely disingenuous.

Frankly put, the game was TOO accessible, they kept rounding off the edges, rubber-coating it and kept the players within bounds that stopped requiring any substantial input from the players themselves. Brink’s audience isn’t lazy enough for that nonsense and that’s why nobody is playing it anymore.

They totally underestimated their public. Players accept being crap at a multiplayer game, it makes their grit their teeth and push further. They want to feel challenged. If you don’t suck at a game the first time you play, then there is something really wrong with the game.

Lately on Console we’ve seen a resurgence of new players

Completely unsubstantiated.[QUOTE][/QUOTE]

(nephandys) #30

As an avid student of psychology I have to agree with Exe here. This is standard human behavior. Laziness is probably not the right word so much as the phrasing “taking the path of least resistance.” It’s a lot easier for a new player to just walk, run, and jump around the maps (like they have in every other game made especially on console) than bother with SMART outside of climbing over obstacles. The average player doesn’t even come to these forums much less play video games for any other reason probably than to have fun. I think too many people are taking Exe’s comments and thinking about themselves personally or their friends/people they play with rather than your average player that picked up the game.

Also, keep in mind the Medium body type is the default so new players really don’t have access to all SMART has to offer right outside the gate and we have already been over how few players actually made it to lvl 7 in order to unlock the light body.

(wolfnemesis75) #31

[QUOTE=tokamak;371737]It certainly reads like that and considering the main goal of this title, it’s pretty painful to read.

It remains a cop out. The most horrendous measures have been pushed through under the guise of making the game more accessible. To then say that the game wasn’t accessible enough for ‘the players in general’ is completely disingenuous.

Frankly put, the game was TOO accessible, they kept rounding off the edges, rubber-coating it and kept the players within bounds that stopped requiring any substantial input from the players themselves. Brink’s audience isn’t lazy enough for that nonsense and that’s why nobody is playing it anymore.[/QUOTE]

Totally illogical. Sorry. Needed to be said. :slight_smile:

Completely unsubstantiated.
Why would you write off what I said like that? How would you be able to even have an opinion on console? Its bizarre. Please stop. :slight_smile:

(Humate) #32

Its not about laziness at all. Its about players seeing the results of the new method, and then realising they cant live without it - because its superior to what they are used to. It failed because they made it an option, and as a result it was perceived to not have a potent enough impact.

(gooey79) #33

To be fair Wolf, how would you be able to have an opinion like that?

Other than seeing some names you’ve maybe not seen before, there’s zero evidence to suggest the numbers are on the rise. Not saying they aren’t but there’s nothing to substantiate the claim - hence it being called ‘unsubstantiated’.

Happy to be proven wrong!

(nephandys) #34

This simply is not true in my experience. This might be true for the majority of forum goers, competitive players, or people you play with, but I think the average gamer wants to pop in their game regardless of platform and have some fun. The vast majority of people aren’t going to stick around for hours of getting their asses handed to them in an effort to get better. For a lot of people that’s just work and that’s not why they play games. Both you and I are really just speaking out of our asses though because neither one of us knows every gamer out there, has any research, etc.

(wolfnemesis75) #35

[QUOTE=*goo;371751]To be fair Wolf, how would you be able to have an opinion like that?

Other than seeing some names you’ve maybe not seen before, there’s zero evidence to suggest the numbers are on the rise. Not saying they aren’t but there’s nothing to substantiate the claim - hence it being called ‘unsubstantiated’.

Happy to be proven wrong![/QUOTE]Are you serious? Every thing said on this forum by anyone is unsubstantiated then. Ha ha ha. I play xbox every night and there seems to be a DRAMATIC difference in the number of players and new players we face! I’ve played non-stop since the DLC has come out, and I kid you not, its hard to find empty matches unless you select very specific search attributes. Not only that, but the resurgence part of my point, is new players. Resurgence of new players. How do I know? Because of the crazy **** they do when they face us. Only a new player would do some of the weird stuff these players do. Weird mine placements, turret placements, camping spots they choose etc.

Hope that clears up stuff. :slight_smile:

(nephandys) #36

True or false navigating the map as a light using SMART is faster and more efficient than walking or running everywhere? True/false, using SMART is more effective than walking and running through corridors to get the drop on your enemies? (I could do a lot more of these) If you answer true, then it’s superior to what people are used to and has a potent impact. Feel free to say false if you want, you’re perfectly entitled to your opinion, but we’d just have to disagree.

*again, not arguing SMART is perfect, couldn’t be better, etc. Just saying Exe has some valid points, but certainly doesn’t cover every single reason why SMART is not used.

(gooey79) #37

It doesn’t clear anything up I’m afraid.

  • [li]‘Seems to be’ - opinion at best.[/li][li]Can’t find open matches - doesn’t the system do the matchmaking? So you wouldn’t see a full lobby if one existed anyway? There are no lobbies or active server/match lists on console.[/li][li]Poor tactics - not confirmation of anything, other than not being very good at the game (at best).

The reason I’m posting back is you’re writing off someone else’s comment and yet have no real evidence to suggest it’s increasing like you seem to think it is. Again, they may well be but none of us can substantiate that claim. Apparently, only Bethesda can and I don’t believe they’ve given any numbers. In terms of player count, Steam stats are the closest we’ve got and that’s PC only.

(.Chris.) #38

[QUOTE=tokamak;371737]It remains a cop out. The most horrendous measures have been pushed through under the guise of making the game more accessible. To then say that the game wasn’t accessible enough for ‘the players in general’ is completely disingenuous.

Frankly put, the game was TOO accessible, they kept rounding off the edges, rubber-coating it and kept the players within bounds that stopped requiring any substantial input from the players themselves. Brink’s audience isn’t lazy enough for that nonsense and that’s why nobody is playing it anymore.

They totally underestimated their public. Players accept being crap at a multiplayer game, it makes their grit their teeth and push further. They want to feel challenged. If you don’t suck at a game the first time you play, then there is something really wrong with the game.
[/QUOTE]

Not at all, read the ‘skill’ in Brink thread for why, http://www.splashdamage.com/forums/showthread.php/30564-Skill-in-Brink everyone who’s made proper posts there has some nice arguments and explanations.

(tokamak) #39

Just as substantiated as the last post.

Why would you write off what I said like that? How would you be able to even have an opinion on console? Its bizarre. Please stop. :slight_smile:

You claim you see a ‘resurgence’, now contrary to the pc, the console numbers aren’t tracked at all(to answer your second question, I know because I am able to play Brink on the X360) except for that blog that regularly post the top 20 (and believe me Brink hasn’t seen that top 20 for a long time). So what gives you the authority to make a statement like this? Where are you sources? When Brink on the PC keeps on declining what reasons would we have to believe it’s different for the consoles?

(Verticae) #40

Really? Because when I join up a COD4 TDM server, and see my team lose badly while I’m the only one on the team with a positive K/D, I don’t see that at all. When I play Counter-Strike and see teams lose 21-2, I don’t see them quitting playing either. I keep seeing them coming back and trying harder. Hell, how many new players still come to QuakeLive and Wolf:ET and try to get better on the pubs every single day?

No, that didn’t need to be said at all, it’d need to be proven wrong. You very apparently can’t do that, so don’t go arguing semantics.

GreasedScotsman, you’re a hero.