Revive Flaw/Issue


(obliviondoll) #21

If you’re downing a Medic, or anyone who’s the current objective class, finish them. Medics because if they get revived first, it speeds up the process of reviving when the next Medic shows up, and objective classes because that way you guarantee that they have to move up from the spawn again - often without support if the rest of the team stays to get revived and they can’t.

Also, if you can get close and the player you incapped isn’t an Operative, you can generally run up and melee finish them instead of shooting - saves ammo if you have the time to spare moving in, or if they’re in your path anyway. Operatives you need to be a bit more cautious about, because you can be Cortex Bombed - but throwing a frag with the right aim can land it under the body, and THAT can be a great advantage when their teammate comes over to revive them - Medic knocked down and Operative finished off, all in one blast.


(blargo) #22

ManGiraffeDog, a horrible marauding godless killing machine, is coming to destroy humanity. I’ve come to warn you to RUN AWAY and save yourselves. Here’s what it looks like so you can be prepared:

I’m super serial.


(Coolaguy) #23

[QUOTE=Glyph;318828]It all depends on the range and weapon you are engaging the enemy with. In some cases the weapons do not have the accuracy or ammo capacity to manage this task without having to pause significantly to compensate for recoil (giving time for them to revive) or having to reload (giving them time as well).[/QUOTE]To this point, competitive players open up with the CARB-9 and finish off downed players with a quick switch to the Sea Eagle. The Sea Eagle’s range and power is pretty significant, and it’s pretty easy to get hit markers when firing semi-auto on a downed target. Win-win.

[QUOTE=Glyph;318828]I’m not saying that this is always impossible to manage but once you throw in a third target it becomes rather tedious for one player to manage. Having to require more time with each successive Revive sounds entirely fair since if a player keeps getting downed then there should be a penalty of some type.[/QUOTE]There are reasonable penalties when reviving:

  1. The reviving player can still be killed.
  2. The medic can’t shoot or acquire targets while reviving.
  3. The medic likely exposed himself to incoming enemy fire in order to throw the revive syringe.
  4. The Revive animation is obvious making you an easy target.
  5. The Reviving player can’t shoot for a significant duration while in the process of reviving.
  6. Any reloads for the Reviving player must occur after the Revive is complete.

Learning to adapt is a component of balance. A game is balanced if, once players have adapted, the optimal strategies have a cost benefit ratio that isn’t wildly out of proportion (i.e. the cost of killing incapacitated players is the real cost of ammunition and the opportunity cost of other targets that I could be acquiring or objectives I could be completing; the benefit is that I am 100% certain that I won’t have to re-incap or suffer a death to a player that I just defeated [for at least another spawn wave])

When the cost benefit ratios are in proportion, a Metagame will evolve where there is a clear tension when making decisions, because no one decision is clearly optimal in all instances. A Metagame will evolve where a certain proportion of players will employ each of the different strategies, because each player hopes to take advantage of the inherent strengths of their own strategy. It becomes Rock-Paper-Scissors, but where the proportions are NOT perfectly attuned and obvious (i.e. instead of being Rock 33%, Paper 33%, and Scissors 33% it might be Stone 39%, MetalShears 32%, and PapierMache 29%. In this instance, everyone might say “Stone is the best”, but there are clearly enough instances in which Stone is suboptimal so that MetalShears and PapierMache get chosen a significant proportion of the time)

In the potential future of Brink’s Metagame, players will probably choose to kill incapacitated enemies when there is no immediate threat. However, when a secondary threat exists, some proportion of players will continue the gib (X), some proportion will immediately switch targets and try to drop the subsequent target (Y), and some proportion will seek cover to evade the attacking enemy (Z).

That is, we can summarize Brink’s Counter-Revive Metagame based on the proportion of players who exhibit the following behaviours:

X% of instances Dedicated to gibing
Y% of instances Preferring to acquire subsequent targets
Z% of instances Preferring to seek cover

(where X + Y + Z sum to 100%)

Examining the metagame behaviours of X, Y, and Z, there will be different costs scenarios represented by the letters A, B, and C, respectively.

A: If the reinforcing player is a medic, then X is a good choice. If the reinforcement is a solider, engineer or operative, then X will have been a costly choice.
B: If the reinforcing player is a medic, then Y is a costly choice. If the reinforcement is a solider, engineer or operative, then Y will have been a potentially beneficial choice.
C: If the reinforcing player is a medic, then Z is a costly choice. If the reinforcement is a solider, engineer or operative, then Z will have been a potentially beneficial choice (and maybe even the optimal).

Balance exists when there is tension in decisions and Good Game Design occurs when skill is a differentiator between who can afford to make which decision and when.


(Kurushi) #24

I’ve only noticed it once today on one guy. Filled him with lead but he still gets up… I can’t be sure but don’t people normally take damage when they’re getting up? It seemed strange at the time


(felismenari) #25

Enemies in the process of reviving themselves most certainly aren’t invincible. Just gotta deal enough damage. Depending on accuracy, range, and damage of your weapon, it could be problematic. As someone else mentioned, downed enemies can take more damage than their base health value.


(murka) #26

While they’re reviving, they can be killed, but while in the getting up animation they’re invincible, kinda annoying.


(Glyph) #27

So you are saying that it is balanced for a player to get downed and have 150 health, get revived and be back to full, get downed and still have another 150 health, …? I’m just pointing out that there should be some handicap for being downed more than once. I agree that the downed mechanic is balanced for the first time a player is downed but for any further it is not.


(Coolaguy) #28

[QUOTE=Glyph;319744]So you are saying that it is balanced for a player to get downed and have 150 health, get revived and be back to full, get downed and still have another 150 health, …? I’m just pointing out that there should be some handicap for being downed more than once. I agree that the downed mechanic is balanced for the first time a player is downed but for any further it is not.[/QUOTE]As you have pointed out, Medics, are no doubt very strong.

Where game balance is concerned, I view the mechanic that you describe as very strong but not exploitive. In the hypothetical event that it is too powerful, then I see this as something that could be tweaked, but I would hope that such changes would be very minor.

In reality, I see the Revive Mechanic as introducing a tension into the game where you are forced to choose to devote your time, firepower, and ammunition to an opponent that could already be considered, for all intents and purposes, to have been removed from the battlefield, if not for the Revive Mechanic.

Opposing players that do not respect the power of the Revive Mechanic will be punished for it.

Competitive teams tend to run mostly Medics and Soldiers, switching in an Engineer here and there for the weapon buff, mines, and turrets (but mostly the weapon buff).

The mechanic of (death – > respawn --> run a long ways back to the battle) is a severe penalty to both the individual player and his team when trying to engage at a tactical position.

In practice, the ability to offset the Penalty Respawn mechanic often outweighs the utility of the other classes, because those other classes principally have utility in terms of their area denial and killing efficiency (where objectives aren’t specifically involved). In other words, the specialization of the Medic potentially trumps the utility of enhanced killing efficiency.

In terms of battle flow, teams are heavily penalized for players that run in one at a time to engage the enemy at a choke point, because they are easy prey.

A team is much much stronger if they attack (and flank) in unison. However, this type of teamwork is difficult to coordinate.

In practice, Medics generate surrogate teamwork and surrogate offensive firepower by increasing the effective number of front line troops. If those troops have any degree of competency, they will swing the battle in their favour. If, however, they are bots (or noobs) assaulting an entrenched position then they will probably have little effect.

When you can revive skilled players who have their own significant killing potential, you don’t need to rely on the potency of land mines or turrets, which can be predicted and exploited. Good players will be able to predict the placement of mines and turrets, and they will be able to overcome the limitations of such equipment.

Medics are quite strong so long as they ensure that the majority of the enemy fire is targeting the other players on their own team. This is the strength of the medic. If the medics, themselves, are targeted, incapacitated, and killed, then the push will be overcome by attrition.

Against a team that is pushing and working together, the presence of multiple medics can be quite difficult to deal with when engaging head-on. In this instance, it makes gibing the downed players even more important. A good team working together will overwhelm you when supported by multiple Medics.

In my experience, I’ve found it necessary to flank these types of coordinated assaults to bring a halt to their push by specifically taking down the Medics from the rear. For this purpose, I have had success when running Soldier and Operative, each with their own playstyle and tactics, of course.

In many ways, I think the Medic is the easiest, most straightforward, most team-oriented, and most XP-rewarding class to play. Where you will run into trouble when playing as a Medic, though, is when your teammates, themselves, are incompetent and incapable of performing the killing duties expected of them. In such cases, you will pull off a ton of revives and get a tremendous amount of XP, but you can be powerless to alter the losing outcome of the match.

Against good players, the utility of the Medic is further diminished in the event that they immediately gib your downed teammates. In this instance, the opportunity cost of the Medic becomes most apparent. You have devoted yourself to a class with very limited specialized killing ability with the hopes that you could offset the penalty mechanic of death-respawn-return to battle. However, your specialization has been deliberately negated by your opponents. Your opponents have made a Metagame Dominant choice in this instance: gibing your downed allies. (If you and all of your teammates were Soldiers, by contrast, then gibing your downed allies would be a decidedly Metagame Inferior choice, because the downed players would no longer represent any threat [assuming no Downed Fire].)

There is an opportunity cost to gibing downed opponents. Likewise, there is an opportunity cost to being a Medic. It is up to you, as a player and as a team to punish your opponents for the choices they make. That is what constitutes a winning strategy. Failure to shift paradigms (when it is necessary to do so) is a losing strategy. It’s all a matter of choice.