Remember the good old days .....


(warbie) #121

Thing is - RTCW was interesting to spectate for many of the same reasons CS still is today - with the better maps from each game having quite a lot in common. Simple, open, choke point focussed. With ET things started to get spread out and vague and it’s been a downward slide in terms of gameplay and spectating since, ending with where we are now with DB. Infact, the best ET map to play/spectate is arguably the user created and competition focused Supply Depot, which is very ‘RTCW’. I think people are over complicating this - better to play will likely result in better to watch. If the experience on the ground is a cluster **** it will be the same from above.

[QUOTE=Kendle;509363]Football works because you can see the entire arena. RTCW worked for the same reason, the action almost always took place within a box, a walled off arena which you could take in at a glance. The fact the map may have several “arenas”, played in succession as something triggers the action moving from one to the other, doesn’t dilute the experience because you can pretty much see everything important that’s happening all the time.

DB is generally not a collection of arenas. Each stage is an area segregated into intersecting corridors by tall buildings, with several of those corridors in play at any one time, meaning it’s harder to visualise what’s going on and to follow the action.

Once again DB’s maps let it down. The game needs RTCW style maps, simpler, more open, clear font lines, clear boundaries, and less clutter within those boundaries.[/QUOTE]

Well put.

[QUOTE=Anti;509352]I personally find Starcraft one of the easiest eSports to watch despite never playing Starcraft 2.

At the most basic level it’s very easy to understand, player with more bases and more units is likely to win. There is a sense of anticipation whenever one blob of troops is about to meet another, because the match state is about to change as a result. The concepts behind the tactics are easy to get, he’s going to rush the enemy before they are prepared, he’s going to out tech the enemy, he’s going to harass the enemy, he’s going to destroy the enemies economy etc. It’s also very often clear who is winning and who isn’t.

The next level down, which units trump which, the quality of micro and macro skills, the attack timings etc is there for the initiated to get excited about but I don’t need to understand it to see an exciting game or to know which moments are important. It’s a fantastic quality for a game to have.[/QUOTE]

It’s interesting how much more you get out of it than I do - and not through my lack of trying. My RTS experience ended with AoE2 and I truly don’t understand enough from watching Star Craft 2 to appreciate it. I usually get when one team is doing better than the other - their little men are killing more of their little men - but the rest is pretty much lost in explosions and bright colours in snippets of action.


(INF3RN0) #122

It’s all beside the fact that you think RTCW was fun to spectate. There’s way more titles that dwarf it in every aspect whether anyone here personally understands/appreciates them or not- numbers don’t lie. I’ve always considered ET/ETQW games more fun to play than to spectate because in most cases things were stripped from the original game or heavily modified AND really a lot of the excitement was on a personal level rather than a global one. For me ETQW 6v6 was the best competitive mode due to sheer variety, though many times I enjoyed high skill pubs even more. Interesting variety in game play has always been more important aspect, even more so than measurement of skill. It’s funny to think TDM is the most played mode of all time, yet the more complex game modes are the ones people prefer to watch.


(warbie) #123

That’s not the point i’m making. I’m saying it was good to spectate for many of the reasons it’s good to spectate CS. Reasons that didn’t apply as much to ET and even less to Quake Wars, Brink etc. Regarding sales/player base - do you think CS would be anywhere near the game it is today, or even still played, had it not been a free mod for so long? I suspect not. I also suspect that had ET been given the love and care Valve showed to CS it would be as popular as ever today and SD would be laughing all the way to the bank with each 5 year update. You can’t go by no.s alone. And had RTCW multiplayer been released for free and supported over the years - well, we’ll have to ask the ppl living in the perfect timeline how that worked out :stuck_out_tongue:


(Glottis-3D) #124

To encourage spectating expirience. Db needs to make 5v5 servers with 10+ spectator slots.
In quakelive i see tonnns of pple watching clanarena pub games. Sometimes they w ait for a slot ingame , some times they just have good times commenting the matchb and trolling ppl. Literally not a single game i have played without someone speccing.
But with 12slot server and 6v6 rules it is imposibru. =(


(PixelTwitch) #125

We also have to remember that lots of people had to go out and buy Half Life in order to play Counter Strike. In your defence many people picked up Half Life for other Mods and would have been able to have multiple games for the price of one… (TF, CS, DoD, Sven and many more).

I fail to believe that even if ET had the same support the game would not be the same like Counter Strike basically is…
The difference between TF and TF2 is actually huge. The problem ET had when compared to Counter Strike is that Counter Strike was well ahead of its time when it came down to the mechanics. CS even removed bunny hopping well before ET was even made. While I do not want to comment on “fun” I do want to comment on modern video games uncanny valley effect when it comes to mechanics. As graphics, animations and sound all improve we end up in a position where it becomes harder and harder to suspend disbelief. Back at the launch of games like ET the setting (War) was simply a theme. The rest of the mechanics combined with simplistic assets allowed us to ignore that this WW2 solly was strafe jumping around a map with zero recoil and other stuff like that… Witnessing the same thing now in a game even like Call of Duty World at War would look dumb… Move forward and imagine it being photo realistic…

I am not saying it would not be fun… Likely it would be awesome!
Just saying we need to think more about the setting in order to have that mass market appeal :).

[QUOTE=Glottis-3D;509378]To encourage spectating expirience. Db needs to make 5v5 servers with 10+ spectator slots.
In quakelive i see tonnns of pple watching clanarena pub games. Sometimes they w ait for a slot ingame , some times they just have good times commenting the matchb and trolling ppl. Literally not a single game i have played without someone speccing.
But with 12slot server and 6v6 rules it is imposibru. =([/QUOTE]

This is a different sort of spectating to what we have been talking about. I do hope the slots are increased however.
We are talking more about having enough people watching a certain match to make it profitable.

In big companies eyes this could be £100 per 1000 people watching per hour all the way down to £10 per 1000 unique hits on a stream.
Smaller companies work with much less…

It really depends if you want the eports side of thing to run as a charity rather then a business.
100 concurrent viewers on a 1 day cup is simply not worth much to a company unless they are just trying to dump their marketing budget before the end of the financial year. A good example of how poor this can be was with Shootmania.

a $100,000 launch week tournament held less then 2 years ago…
Already its hard to even find the VoDs of the event and during the finals it only managed to hold around 2000 viewers.


(Glottis-3D) #126

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;509379]
This is a different sort of spectating to what we have been talking about. I do hope the slots are increased however.
We are talking more about having enough people watching a certain match to make it profitable.

In big companies eyes this could be £100 per 1000 people watching per hour all the way down to £10 per 1000 unique hits on a stream.
Smaller companies work with much less…

It really depends if you want the eports side of thing to run as a charity rather then a business.
100 concurrent viewers on a 1 day cup is simply not worth much to a company unless they are just trying to dump their marketing budget before the end of the financial year. A good example of how poor this can be was with Shootmania.

a $100,000 launch week tournament held less then 2 years ago…
Already its hard to even find the VoDs of the event and during the finals it only managed to hold around 2000 viewers.[/QUOTE]
yeah, man, i totally get it, and agree. i just thought big things start with small…(dont know if there is original english phrase on this)
if pple are used to spec, because they are able to and they have tools to spec. it will lead to more ppl watching tournaments.


(INF3RN0) #127

Shootmania is the type of game that’s so focused on hardcore skill that it’s boring to watch unless that’s enough to keep you entertained all the time. It’s the same reason why a lot of what we might consider exciting moments in RTCW/ET/ETQW are only exciting for the player and not the spectator. CS is a great spectator game because there’s much more going on than guy A aiming at guy B. You need an interesting meta with a deeper strategy than ‘master the killing mechanics’. That’s the bad thing about many competitive players views on game design- all the focus is on the personal experience and not the public experience.


(Erkin31) #128

Shootmania is the type of game that’s so focused on hardcore skill that it’s boring to watch unless that’s enough to keep you entertained all the time.

I find that Shootmania is boring to watch because its gameplay is not enough complex and fast. (even if it is more complex and fast than the majority of other new fps).
I like to play to shootmania, but compared to a Quake or tribes, shootmania lack of the complexity which permits to make a lot of impressive things. This limits the spectacle.


(Glottis-3D) #129

[QUOTE=Erkin31;509404]I find that Shootmania is boring to watch because its gameplay is not enough complex and fast. (even if it is more complex and fast than the majority of other new fps).
I like to play to shootmania, but compared to a Quake or tribes, shootmania lack of the complexity which permits to make a lot of impressive things. This limits the spectacle.[/QUOTE]

yeah, shootmania is like a mod for quake. limited. and thus gets you bored very soon.


(chippy) #130

[QUOTE=iwound;509164]
i dont understand this “its too long” argument. your saying you want to finish quicker so you can do the same thing over and over. a longer map has more variation.[/QUOTE]

I never stated that. Perhaps I phrased that abit weird. I was talking about the last objective of the old camden which was pretty boring (in my oppinion) and that the map should have ended upon delivering all the “milkjugs” to the helicopter. That would have been perfect in terms of length for that particular map.


(INF3RN0) #131

Quality>Length. Commence innuendos.


(Humate) #132

//youtu.be/j109IyScx3g

Recent one :slight_smile: