Remember the good old days .....


(Anti) #81

[QUOTE=JBRAA;509219][QUOTE=Tankey;506452]Since everyone does, this ET moment is just a great example of how it should be. There’s so much skill/tactics/timing involved in this lil part of only 30secs.

It’s heartpumping for both the players and spectators. Imagine spectating this with a shoutcaster. Wunderbar!
[video=youtube_share;VFqM9UGkuwE]http://youtu.be/VFqM9UGkuwE[/video][/QUOTE]wonderful.[/QUOTE]

I love this clip because it demonstrates just how hard it is to make FPS games work well as an eSport. This clip simultaneously means the world to ET players and means nothing to players of any other FPS. The ‘skill/tactics/timing’ used here just don’t come across in the clip at all unless you played ET, in fact I’d argue a lot of the detail is probably even lost to pub players of ET.

MOBAs and fighting games have so many more moments of skill and talent that are easy to see and grok if you don’t play the game (or play it that often). I think examples like these come across much better for ‘the neutral’:

//youtu.be/Lq1ey4-ewyQ

//youtu.be/x0zE8DcxpT4

It’s the combination of the clearer points of view (third person), the very binary mechanics and down time between action for exposition that makes it so much easier to communicate to players what is happening in these games/moments.

It’s something I hope we nail in DB in terms of both gameplay and spectating, and I’d love to hear suggestions on how we might achieve this, because I think we’re missing a trick if the skillful/meaningful/team work moments in DB end up coming across in as subtle a way as they do in the sqzz video does.


(stealth6) #82

If you want to take a game as an example please refer to CS:GO instead of Dota.

The fighting game is very clear, the time is running out, 1 player has low HP, but somehow survives and wins so it’s clear that it’s a good play even if you don’t know the game.

As for Dota I 100% disagree, if you don’t have a moba background or something similar then you just can’t tell wtf just happened. When my friend shows me a Dota highlight then most of the time he has to play it 3 times, explain what just happened and then I’ll finally understand. Even though I’ve played 200 games! There’s just too much going on in 1 view and the HUD doesn’t stand out / make it clear what’s going on.

CS:GO has a clear HUD for shoutcasters and you can bring up the map to show an overview of player positions. Obviously a good shoutcaster plays a big part in it too. During the ESL matches for CS:GO many people commented that even though they’ve never played the game before they found it entertaining to watch.


#83

Clicking fast, or making people die, dont make newbs understand what is done to achieve what they did (how the planned it, how the had tons of experience to get good guesses/see the future.

Millions or thousands watching pros play, isnt the same as them appreciating or understanding the skills.

Do fotball fans, or hockeyfans, understand the skills?

Run, pass, shoot? All there is to sport?
Then one could say FPS is, shoot, move, reload.

Entertainment of watching, is perhaps different for different people.

Top 5 movies for HoN for example, are very nice to look at, since its nice moments. These moments happen decent players too, just not as often.

I’d personally dont understand why people watch fotball or hockey.
They dont do it to learn how to be better players.
They must do it cause of social things, to talk about. And traditions in friends and family cheering for one team.
Its more of a culture than a logical thing.

I’d say making FPS an esport to watch, is about substainable community culture.

Since game companies now adays hate communities, since it makes players stick with 1 game too long, making the game companies and game producers “lose money”.

Its not just about visualls, as you perhaps wanted to say its about.
First person, or third person, is marginal impact I’d say.

But Im no expert, or experienced. This is just top of my head thoughts.

TL;DR
Culture, or community is what causes people to watch stuff they dont like, so they can talk about it, and be friends easier.
Aaand eventually, understand stuff easier. But its not where the egg/hen starts. Its starts with friends/social according to me.


#84

Yeah. Not even 500 games is anything in moba.
When you come up to 2000+ 45 min games you are decent player who actually understand what is happening, knows pros/cons with items heroes. Counters etc.

I claim 95% of dota watchers dont know **** whats going on :slight_smile: They watch like people watch fotball. They see if somone scores, passes, etc. But they DONT see the 100 things between things. They dont see the calculations, the ideas, etc.

I might be too strong in my examples, but only pros sees whats pros does, even in moba and fighting game.

However, you can cheer, drink, and be friendly, even if you dont understand.

Also, people want to learn the game, that their friends are playing.

And, please SD please understand, with high pc spec requirements, only “rich” people can play.

So, LoL can be played in a wooden computer. Right.
Can DB be played on a wooden computer?
If not, then dont expect LoL-like or CS:GO like success, where you can get 50+FPS on a freaking 40 dollar CPU.

Sorry, hehe harch tone.

But seriously, add “wooden pc” setting, for people, so more people can play.
If you dont want or understand that, then fine, its ok, but dont expect other results then. Just saying.


#85

About substainable community culture
I meant that its the pillars that make other things happend.

Esport, mods, etc, wont happen if people arent playing the game, and making new friends playing. It will just die in x months like most games.
Since thats what THEY want. They want to kill their game, so they can sell another one in 1 year or 2.

They=Whoever makes the money.

LoL/Dota2/HoN/CS:GO dont aim for freaking 1-2 years lifespan. PFFt. :slight_smile:

So, my suggestion for esport-friendlyness:

  • Make it community & social friendly to its maxium!

For example, if people cant group up in lobby with their friends and then search for a game together, ppfft, bye, game dead.

Dead as in longterm dead / dead within 24 months.

Sorry for the tone.
Just frustrated. Not an excuse.

BF & COD are long gone dead, when it comes to community.
Both Activision and EA totally hates HAAAATEEEES communities or esport.
(yes I know they have some investment in esport, but thats like saying microsoft likes gaming on pc lol. MS HATES gaming on pc, since its ruins their xbox money)

No freaking way, that a game should be played more than 24 months MAX according to them.

EA and Activision are doing this since they have big snowballs already running.
They got huge momentum.

But if they hadnt had that, they would not be able to kill their communities like they do.
Aaadn, im pretty sure they cant keep up this forever.
People will move to games with possible communities eventually.
Right now its only CS:GO of FPS’es that has that, and that game isnt for everyone.

Everyone are trying make new mobas. Most fail.
People want to play with their friends.
Easy as that.


(potty200) #86

[QUOTE=Anti;509274]I love this clip because it demonstrates just how hard it is to make FPS games work well as an eSport. This clip simultaneously means the world to ET players and means nothing to players of any other FPS. The ‘skill/tactics/timing’ used here just don’t come across in the clip at all unless you played ET, in fact I’d argue a lot of the detail is probably even lost to pub players of ET.

MOBAs and fighting games have so many more moments of skill and talent that are easy to see and grok if you don’t play the game (or play it that often). I think examples like these come across much better for ‘the neutral’:

//youtu.be/Lq1ey4-ewyQ

//youtu.be/x0zE8DcxpT4

It’s the combination of the clearer points of view (third person), the very binary mechanics and down time between action for exposition that makes it so much easier to communicate to players what is happening in these games/moments.

It’s something I hope we nail in DB in terms of both gameplay and spectating, and I’d love to hear suggestions on how we might achieve this, because I think we’re missing a trick if the skillful/meaningful/team work moments in DB end up coming across in as subtle a way as they do in the sqzz video does.[/QUOTE]

Just watched that dota video and honestly I have no idea what was going on in the slightest. Some things running around with fire and magic then everyone jumping and screaming because something was blown up I think? Not a watchable esport title for someone who does NOT play that game.

A perfect esport game to watch in my eyes is COD4. I never ever played cod yet I loved to watch the live matches and shoutcasts. Easy to understand (similar to CS gamemode) plus I understood every perk and ability that was allowed in completive game mode. On the flipside, If I was to tune into DB… So many abilities and guns and objectives and maps and ect ect ect ect. You will never be able to target an audience who do not play this game. Way too many unique things right now. Before, with classes, it was a little simpler to follow. The maps will make for awful watching though.


(Glottis-3D) #87

first of all SD need a game that is fun to play. and then - fun to watch.
i cannot imagine a game being fun2watch and boring to play.


(Violator) #88

Not a clue what was going on in that Dota vid but I’ve never played it (watched a couple of games but its not really my thing). The SF vid - pretty easy to see what happened there :).

DB can have its epic moments - e.g. the other day backraged the attackers who were covering the dyno / spawn in Terminal, backstabbed 3 and shot the last guy with about 3hp left in a ‘how the ***** did I survive that’ moment, the team then broke out of spawn and defused.

We can have the ‘good new days’ folks :wink:


(prophett) #89

Regarding highlight clips/highlights in general - some of the lacking map & features we’ve been requesting would go a long way toward facilitating instances where a player can clutch.

Right now about the biggest clutch moment I can think of is on White Chapel and the lone defender pulls off a 1v2/1v3/1v4 with seconds left on the clock to win the match. That’s about as exciting as it gets for me. Due to the way the map is constructed and the current doc run works, there aren’t many opportunities for “clutch returns” like we are used to seeing on classic maps like ice, frostbite, and even goldrush (The real good ol’ days). Having to steal the docs from the current secure location and run them back to the Chapel would be a more exciting alternative with more possibilities for clutch plays/highlights.

Regarding other maps - there is nothing exciting about hacks, plants, or especially zone captures. Last second defuses are ok, but nothing great.

Regarding Anti’s videos/comments - Agree - The doc run was amazing, but disagree on the other clips. I loaded the videos but couldn’t watch more than a few seconds without losing interest.


(Mustang) #90

Bring back Bridge Alt.


(Glottis-3D) #91

this is what can realy gif fun to watchers, while being fun for players.
-sneak plants (or any other objects). this requires a very well thought sneaky routes.
-wiping the whole enemy team with skill based abilities. by skill i mean NOT spam-your-airstrikes-or-molotovs
-areas on maps that have a very strong strategic value. be that houses near object, or secondary objects, or routes etc. remember that House at first “The Ark” object in ETQW? If you dont take that house, you aint gonna plant the bomb in the safe zone. these areas are frontlines of the game. if you have lots of them, and they are obvious - then the games have a good flow.


(INF3RN0) #92

LoL is currently the biggest esport and likely the most well comprehended. CS is probably at the top of FPS as a successfully entertaining esport. But to be honest a lot of esports develop out of pure popularity and out of the 10% that actually supports the game as an esport usually only 1% actually fully understand what is happening (twitch chat RIP). The big factor here is whether the game is interesting to watch and is able to relay a lot of exciting moments that don’t feel overly repetitive. All people have to understand is the basic ideas enough to know when something is a big play, even if they don’t know exactly what happened to the detail.

The reason why I think LoL is so successful is because MOBAs haven’t yet been over-saturated on the market, it has the most comprehend-able mechanics (easy to learn difficult to master yes, but miles more complex than any FPS), it propagates exciting engagements and diverse opportunities within them, and has a balanced mix of both player skill and intuitive mechanics. The issue with a lot of skill based FPS is that even though they may be exciting to play, they are absolutely boring to watch and only the person playing or a hardcore fan is going to appreciate the skill based mechanics under the hood.


(spookify) #93

Alt Bridge was pretty sweet but hardly got any play time on it.

I do remember thinking this is sort of like Frostbite and has that feel…

Either the Offense or Defense can take the hill and defend the cap area… Both are equal distant it felt… Build that up a little and add some stuff and it was a great final cap… If you make it a little more in favor of the defense then you only need one cap… The current room on Bridge is very accessible and I mean very compared to some ET maps:

Look at RTCW/ET Beach… 4 ways in right???.. Vent 1 and Vent 2… One way Door (WHICH DB NEEDS!!) and open hallway door… Vents took time to crawl through and 1 way door if timed and the team was dumb could let you in…

Look at Gold Rush… Open Field followed by 2 ways in if I remember correct. but then funneled down to 1 way in… 1 way!! Made for Epic last stands…

What does bridge have 1 Side Door up a ramp then that breaks into 3 windows and a hall way… Main way in followed by 3 hallways!!! THEN the back way up the stairs to two hallways and a door way right into the doc area…

The fundamental map making is great but look back at history and sometime simplistic is best…

Look at Frostbite there was only 2 ways to get the docs…

ICE there were only 3 ladders to get to the top…

In a nut shell doc room should have 2 ways and maybe a 3rd slower path that is exposed…

Important:
THIS IS WAR!!! I know it is a little different then a WWII game like RTCW or ET and seems to be post modern government fall but dont you think important rooms would have been better protected then they are in the game… Think like a Government War architect and also combine that with mid-evil Keep style thinking and that is your doc room…

This thinking above might actually “Make” people use team work… Right now DB doesnt force you to use team work and the individual act can win a game…


(spookify) #94

[QUOTE=spookify;509302]Alt Bridge was pretty sweet but hardly got any play time on it.

I do remember thinking this is sort of like Frostbite and has that feel…

Either the Offense or Defense can take the hill and defend the cap area… Both are equal distant it felt… Build that up a little and add some stuff and it was a great final cap… If you make it a little more in favor of the defense then you only need one cap… The current room on Bridge is very accessible and I mean very compared to some ET maps:

Look at RTCW/ET Beach… 4 ways in right???.. Vent 1 and Vent 2… One way Door (WHICH DB NEEDS!!) and open hallway door… Vents took time to crawl through and 1 way door if timed and the team was dumb could let you in…

Look at Gold Rush… Open Field followed by 2 ways in if I remember correct. but then funneled down to 1 way in… 1 way!! Made for Epic last stands…

What does bridge have 1 Side Door up a ramp then that breaks into 3 windows and a hall way… Main way in followed by 3 hallways!!! THEN the back way up the stairs to two hallways and a door way right into the doc area…

The fundamental map making is great but look back at history and sometime simplistic is best…

Look at Frostbite there was only 2 ways to get the docs…

ICE there were only 3 ladders to get to the top…

In a nut shell doc room should have 2 ways and maybe a 3rd slower path that is exposed…

Important:
THIS IS WAR!!! I know it is a little different then a WWII game like RTCW or ET and seems to be post modern government fall but dont you think important rooms would have been better protected then they are in the game… Think like a Government War architect and also combine that with mid-evil Keep style thinking and that is your doc room…

This thinking above might actually “Make” people use team work… Right now DB doesnt force you to use team work and the individual act can win a game…[/QUOTE]

Example of what is in my mind…



(rookie1) #95

[video=youtube_share;p-OUNPqRzII]http://youtu.be/p-OUNPqRzII?t=14m52s[/video]
My doc run dream :wink: @ 14m52s that’s excitement


(PixelTwitch) #96

[QUOTE=rookie1;509309][video=youtube_share;p-OUNPqRzII]http://youtu.be/p-OUNPqRzII?t=14m52s[/video]
My doc run dream :wink: @ 14m52s that’s excitement[/QUOTE]

ffs… I played this when it first came out for a full day but then got bored… after skipping though the video I just realised I quit like 10 min before the end :frowning:


(Erkin31) #97

[QUOTE=Anti;509274]I love this clip because it demonstrates just how hard it is to make FPS games work well as an eSport. This clip simultaneously means the world to ET players and means nothing to players of any other FPS. The ‘skill/tactics/timing’ used here just don’t come across in the clip at all unless you played ET, in fact I’d argue a lot of the detail is probably even lost to pub players of ET.

MOBAs and fighting games have so many more moments of skill and talent that are easy to see and grok if you don’t play the game (or play it that often). I think examples like these come across much better for ‘the neutral’:

//youtu.be/Lq1ey4-ewyQ
[/QUOTE]

Yes and no.
ET is not easy to be understood for a spectator which is not an expert. But I find that FPS like Quake 3 is enough easy to be understood by classic gamers.
Yes this FPS is complex, but it’s not a problem. You shouldn’t be afraid to make an FPS too complex.

SF is really complex, the people which don’t play to the game will not understand why justin launches his super, why and how Daigo parries (and not block) each move, then his counter attack composed of a crouched medium kick cancelled (timing) by a shoryuken cancelled (timing) by a super.


(Mustang) #98

The SF clip means nothing to me until Erkin31 explained what was going on, suddenly is it way more enjoyable. Similarly with no sound the DOTA clips is, as potty said, things running around with fire and magic, but with sound it’s the commentators that make it enjoyable to “the neutral”. I don’t buy that any game is fun to watch for someone that doesn’t play it unless there is a good explanation or commentary of what’s going on, now that is something you can design for, but don’t cut out all the enjoyable little details the fans like to see just to cater for neutrals, that won’t get it anyway.


(Erkin31) #99

I haven’t really explained it :slight_smile: Here a good link to understand the moment 37 : http://www.gatheryourparty.com/2013/03/12/more-than-mashing-evo-moment-37/


(Anti) #100

[QUOTE=stealth6;509277]If you want to take a game as an example please refer to CS:GO instead of Dota.

The fighting game is very clear, the time is running out, 1 player has low HP, but somehow survives and wins so it’s clear that it’s a good play even if you don’t know the game.

As for Dota I 100% disagree, if you don’t have a moba background or something similar then you just can’t tell wtf just happened. When my friend shows me a Dota highlight then most of the time he has to play it 3 times, explain what just happened and then I’ll finally understand. Even though I’ve played 200 games! There’s just too much going on in 1 view and the HUD doesn’t stand out / make it clear what’s going on.

CS:GO has a clear HUD for shoutcasters and you can bring up the map to show an overview of player positions. Obviously a good shoutcaster plays a big part in it too. During the ESL matches for CS:GO many people commented that even though they’ve never played the game before they found it entertaining to watch.[/QUOTE]

I agree CSGO does it well. I didn’t pick the best clip for Dota 2, if you were to watch the whole match the context and ability were explained in down time between key fights.

The point with ET was that you need so much ‘initiated’ knowledge to understand things like timings, fast completion times etc. I’m hoping with DB we can use things like Echo data to be able to give that knowledge, mid match, to the uninitiated.