Reloading

[light_sh4v0r]

In the scenario Qhullu describes an active reload would definately be stronger. If you decide to fall back behind a wall to reload, you will have the time and concentration available to perform a fast reload.
It works the same way in Alien swarm, if you fall back behind your teammates, all your fast reloads succeed. When you perform them during a firefight however I usually fail.
Point being that if you have the chance to fall back, there is not much punishment left in reloading if there is an active reload.

[maxtalent]

[QUOTE=tokamak;234225]‘more complexity = bad’ at all.

If you chose to go for the active reload, you pay in concentration. If you focus on getting the reload right you’re focusing less on the enemy. Here you need to weigh in how much effort you can put into it depending on the situation. Too much concentration and you fail to see the guy shooting at you, too little concentration and you mess up, incapacitation you longer rendering you vulnerable. It’s only when you weigh in these options right you spend the right amount of effort on the active-reload you gain an advantage here.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think more complexity = bad it just seems that this is unwanted complexity. And normally when your reloading your not in the middle of a firefight, so you can 90% of the time you can afford to nail the active reload.

I’d rather see a quick hands perk then active reload and throwing away a magazine just sucks plainly. I don’t want to run around with half a clip because i know i’ll throw away my mag if I do reload.

I’m not opposed to the ideas I just don’t think they would work for this game. Like with prone i think it might slow down the pace. If everyone’s running around with half-magazines and jamming their guns it kinda taints the run n’ gun aspect.

[maxtalent]

Point being that if you have the chance to fall back, there is not much punishment left in reloading if there is an active reload.

my sentiments exactly

[tokamak]

[QUOTE=light_sh4v0r;234227]In the scenario Qhullu describes an active reload would definately be stronger. If you decide to fall back behind a wall to reload, you will have the time and concentration available to perform a fast reload.
It works the same way in Alien swarm, if you fall back behind your teammates, all your fast reloads succeed. When you perform them during a firefight however I usually fail.
Point being that if you have the chance to fall back, there is not much punishment left in reloading if there is an active reload.[/QUOTE]

True! And that’s something I would love to see encouraged, the player reads his surroundings, the actors in the field, and then makes a conscious decision to relocate and do an active reload. He would have deserved the advantage there.

I don’t think more complexity = bad it just seems that this is unwanted complexity. And normally when your reloading your not in the middle of a firefight, so you can 90% of the time you can afford to nail the active reload.

If you’re not reloading in the middle of the firefight then there wouldn’t be much of an advantage in nailing the active reload.

That’s the elegance, the more you need the active reload, the harder it becomes to pull off. So it takes good situational awareness and decisiveness to pull an advantage out of it.

[MadJack]

To me this discussion on reload is a dead horse not worth resurrecting so I’ll drop off it.

[nemezote]

I think the point that has been made several times over is that more features/complexity/layers of gameplay wont always equate to a better gaming experience overall.

Reloading is not a formality, I dont know what games you play, but whenever im playing I dont just empty my magazine and think “oh look ma! imma reload!” I have to consciously think about how many shots im averaging per person, my accuracy, if I have enough ammo to defend myself should I need it, if I think I have enough time to complete a reload before getting in another fight, and when and IF im going to reload.

This, and much more make realoading a practice that can, as it is, be approached with a level of complexity that is as deep as every user wants. Ive been playing multiplayer games since Doom (not that it featured reloading…but you get my point) and too many times I have caught and punished people for reloading at the wrong time and have been shot dead while reloading myself. So, in my experience this is not an aspect of online gaming that needs to be modified. Its just fine as it is, after all, these games are all FPS (Firs Person Shooters) not FPR (First Person Reloaders). Fun will be had when you spend time shooting, and not reloading. Games by their basic definition are meant to be fun and enjoyable, and I believe that this kind of unnecessary complexity will destroy some of that fun.

Its not a shallow aspect of the game. It is, as most aspects of a game a zone that is open to be improved by player skills and nothing else. I think that you try give a concrete form to aspects of the game that dont have it, you try to find a name for everything, so to speak, and by doing that you think that you are adding the opportunity for player skills to show through, but I think you fail to realize that players with skills and a thirst for depth of gameplay create such opportunities by themselves.

Also, this is an objective based team game, were its much more important to learn to play as a team, know each other strengths and weakneses and complete objectives as fast and as effectively as possible. Its not team deathmatch or free for all, frag count wont always equate to a better outcome for the team or the player overall.

Id rather have developers use that same effort in making other aspects of the game better, such as friend integration, rank system, XP system, ping management, hit recognition, dedicated servers, aiming and shooting mechanics, SMART, optimization of the game so that it can run better on lower-end PCs, user-created content support and so on. These are all things that I believe have not yet reached its potential and could well do with a bit of attention from the developer parts.

In the end though there is a way to make everyone happy, implement the feature, but have an option to completely disable it, or make it a perk (though that is less desirable IMO). I, as many friends who play with me, get very carried away sometimes and just hammer the reload button over and over in our exitement, and I dont want to lose a magazine or lengthen my reload time because of a feature that I did not really want.

This extends to a lot of things actually and the power of user choice over aspects of the game is not to be underestimated, it will strengthen the sense of property, make the community stronger and longer lasting and generally make any game better.

[maxtalent]

well said and i agree

[INF3RN0]

[QUOTE=nemezote;234260]I think the point that has been made several times over is that more features/complexity/layers of gameplay wont always equate to a better gaming experience overall.
[/QUOTE]

+1 This is exactly why I am against a number of things that technically add “complexity/depth”.

[Nos]

[QUOTE=MadJack;234163]@tokamak, I have to ask. If you don’t really believe in that feature why do you continue to be its devil’s advocate?

It’s not quite making sense to me. You’ve seen the results, so why? I’m just curious.[/QUOTE]

I believe he is just arguing for the hell of it. (Not trolling, promise)

[Apples]

Even if I disagree with this idea of reloading, you guyz should try to stay a bit civil as he clearly stated it wasnt a discussion around the game per se, but a discussion to maybe implement this stuff in fast paced FPS and how could it be implemented…

I didnt know it was now a crime to discuss about ideas on a forum… everything now is “fact fact FACTs! we want more Fact!”

And its arguing as you said that makes us what we are now, if you never argue, you never evolve…

Peace

[tokamak]

I believe he is just arguing for the hell of it. (Not trolling, promise)

It’s quite hard to defend against that accusation, as I would need to argue for it to do so. I do admit that I want to have a discussion here. I know there are other topics where I put my foot down and defend it till the skin of my teeth but this topic isn’t one of them.

-snip-

This really isn’t how I experience it. I never have to think hard about reloading ever and there are lots of instances where it’s merely standard procedure.

[INF3RN0]

If we want to discuss anything else, I would say it’s time to move on to something new. This one has obviously been ruled out, so no need to beat a dead horse . Perhaps this time something other than reloading (which I think most agree is pretty good as is).

[Mimical_Theory]

I feel like I might be joining the losing side but what-ever. Here goes nothing:

I agree with Tokamak.
( waits for the heat of flamethrower)
…
…

Alrighty. Here is why,
The act of reloading has basically done two things over the course of its history, a few years ago all the games had a “Reload” option. press it and your characters “clip/magasine” was re-filled and any extra ammuinition left inside of it was conserved in the total amount that you had.

Then a few games ventured into the “Active reload” where once you reloaded, if you pressed another control, or the same one for a second time at a specific moment you would be rewarded with faster reload time/powerful ammunition ect ect.

Both systems kept the amount of ammo you have on the person as a total,
ei you have 60 bullets in your pixle pockets, 15/20 in a magasine, you reload and only 5 of your pocket munitions were subtracted from 60,

Of course Tokamak says that it would be better if instead a full 20 bullets were subtracted, and the 15 left in your clip was dropped on the ground inside the magasine.
___________________________________________________________-

Real argument starts here: The main reason I beleive this would be a positive aspect in a game would simply be for awarness. Alot of players have contracted SARS over the years of playing games ( Systematic Automatic Reload Sydrome) where after 2, or 3, or 5 shots we immediatly reload. is it becuase we have been conditioned to do this? or becuase we know having a full clip is always better then a half? The second option seems more logical but at this point I think we are all illogically reloading becuase we think 3 grey bullets beside 27 white ones is a bad thing.

With the introduction of dropping what-ever is left in a clip for a full one, at the cost of what-ever was left behind it would be quite the slap in the face to see “no ammo” blinking on the bottom half of our screen. maybe its to early for our tiny minds, as we can only focus on running at the person ahead of us at full speed.

I personally Think people assume this will be a bad thing, or it doesnt work with the “pace” of the game, but honestly, what more works with two groups of people fighting with what-ever they have left. situation: The ammo that your charcter has is found only on the Ark, I didnt see and ammunitions factorys in the background anywhere.

So I purpose: Two Reloads. ( with one control/button)

pushing the reload button puts the ammunition which was left in the mag back into the pockets of our detailed character and then the total amount of a mag subtracted, ( thus traditional style gameplay)

pushing twice ( double tapping or what would you call it) drop’s the mag on the spot and places another in its place ( what Tokamak is discribing) the bonus, a Much shorter reload time ( assume to conserve the ammo in the mag your character places his “spent” mag back inside a pocket, which takes an extra game time of “X” time )

now you may say:
Mimical your a tool
or you might say:
Mimical but then nobody would double tap… theres no point

Although your arguments pages before talked about how when character A is behind cover he chooses to reload at the designated 3.15 Second reload time at the expense of no safty should someone come around the corner.

So I give two examples:
your behind a corner, you have 50% of your ammo left within a mag, you decide to reload. this takes Exactly 3.15 Seconds to do so, At 1.5 Seconds A opponent comes around the corner, two things can happen should you decide to implement my spin on Tokamak’s idea… or not.

a) you decided im a tool, : you are left un-gaurded for 1.65 seconds, which as we know means your dead. But you got to conserve your ammo for the sake of a fast paced game.

b) You double tap/hit the reload again, for argument sake lets assume it drops the reload time to 2.0 seconds flat.
This would mean you are un-defended for 0.5 seconds. Yes you might still die, but you might survive. and thats worth 50% of the ammo in your mag, and ALOT more exitement.

so think of it as a way in “Emergencies” or when you just need to look B.A. or you may take the traditional route with conserving your un-spent ammo for a longer reload time.

I left the revolver right beside the table, feel free to pick it up and shoot this down.
If you would like.

[maxtalent]

I like it. It gives the depth tokamak was trying for while still satisfying the rest of us.

Mimical, how do you think a fast hands perk would fit into this? would you eliminate it entirely or just reload faster on top of that? (like you double tap and reload super fast while throwing away the clip.)

[Mimical_Theory]

[QUOTE=maxtalent;234379]I like it. It gives the depth tokamak was trying for while still satisfying the rest of us.

Mimical, how do you think a fast hands perk would fit into this? would you eliminate it entirely or just reload faster on top of that? (like you double tap and reload super fast while throwing away the clip.)[/QUOTE]

thank’s, as for the perk. Im not much of a brinker so this is news to me lol.
Well there is a few ways to work it in with it.

You could do a medium: Weapon A takes 3.5 seconds to reload. with Fast hands it takes 2.75 Seconds, with the Tokamak Reload it takes 2.0 flat. regardless of perk or not.

This way the fastest reload will always remove your ammunition, but it wont be stupid fast. but the fast hands perk makes a big difference in time.

Or you could have it effect both times,
Same weapon A: takes 2.75 seconds to reload with Perk, ( rather then 3.5 without)
and the Tokamak reload takes 1.75 Seconds to Reload with perk ( rather then 2.0 without)

of course im just throwing numbers out here, but If you had the perk effect both times, then it would have to effect a normal reload by a larger degree. Becuase if you did a 50% speed increase then you could pull off a T-load ( as I now affectionatly call it) in 1.0 seconds flat!

or you could remove the perk completely. But I’d rather not do that if its possible to balance all three.

[maxtalent]

i don’t think the perk was confirmed but it seems likely

PS: compromising for the win

[maxtalent]

oh yeah if you’d like to get relatively up to speed on Brink:

BRINK Info Compendium V2 - Brink General Discussion

its (almost) everything we know about the game

[Mustang]

I am against the idea of precision timing to get a fast reload, ala Alien Swarm
To me it takes too much concentration for a fast paced multiplayer FPS

However the reload mechanic Mimical describes sounds awesome
Normal reload speed and don’t lose any ammo, or fast reload and lose the ammo in your clip

I thought I was against the lose ammo on reload idea
But with an obvious fast reload benefit I can see the advantages of having it
I can see this being good fun

Good brains mate, looking forward to your mod

[maxtalent]

glad I’m not the only one that liked it

[LyndonL]

… and the half-spent mag you drop is available for pickup (by any team that is equipped with the appropriate weapon) 3 seconds after it hits the ground, to be included into their ammo cache…