Reloading

(SockDog) #101

(Nail) #102

tok, have you played Peggle ?
seems like your kind of game

don’t get me wrong, it’s a great game,

(tokamak) #103

It won’t so don’t worry. I would be satisfied if someone just said “no because I say so”, but I think he wants to try and persuade the 99.9% of us who said no thanks that we are missing something .

I would love to agree on the second point of not having to clarify the same point over and over.

Look people, I’m not here to ram this idea down your throats, you don’t have to like it and I’m not even sure I absolutely stand behind it. But what I do want is to discuss it, I want to hear good points against, preferably points that will convince me that it’s not a good idea.

So far it seems like a really good idea to me. And I have yet to hear valid points against it. Arguments that it might overcomplicate the game or make people shoot less aren’t really holding ground here, the complexity is optional and you can ignore it if you wish. Only when you frantically reload or being conciously conserving your bullets you will notice the effects. Same for active reload, it’s there, you don’t have to use it, if you don’t you reload as normal without suffering any complexity. It will only affect you when you’re engaging an enemy who does use the quick-reload, making the opponent less predictable as he can either perfect it or jam it, and I don’t see why that could be a bad thing.

So pressing the reload button once has become a chore, pressing it twice will become a chore… miss-timing the press twice will become a chore that pisses you off. I see no benefit to adding an annoyance to something that has already been classed as a chore. I could possibly see it working if miss-timing only meant you still went through the same reload mechanic, and getting it perfect gave you a faster reload… but penalizing for a mini-game will not work for a game that already has so much happening in it.

What is meant by ‘chore’ is an action that doesn’t require much thought. Adding a quick-load option to this mechanic means you CAN put more thought into it if you don’t want to. The reason that it needs a penalty is that otherwise there would be no reason not to go for it. Or, that’s what I think, maybe it can work out without penalty.

[QUOTE=Nail;234035]tok, have you played Peggle ?
seems like your kind of game

don’t get me wrong, it’s a great game,[/QUOTE]

No I haven’t. It looks fun but normally I’m not into that sort of stuff.

(DarkangelUK) #104

How does adding more thought to something make it less of a chore? I have to wash the dishes, do you think if I had to solve a puzzle on my sink to unlock it, then press a button on time to wash a plate, which if i got wrong would smash, would make dishes more fun and engaging? No… it would piss me off. Reloading has to be done A LOT, and having to do a silly button press time event every time I reload through-out a match would just be damn annoying . Making a game more complex than it needs to be is damn annoying and will drive people away… “ffs I can’t even just simply reload in this game”. What you see as ‘adding depth’ most will see as annoying… the replies on here should be a hint to that.

You strike me as the opposite to comp players, they want to remove stuff for the hell of it… you want to add stuff for the hell of it then hide behind the ‘it adds depth’ excuse when no one thinks the same. You may think it does, the vast majority don’t.

(engiebenjy) #105

I agree - For me depth shouldnt be forced, it should be there perhaps through special jumps you need to find - perk combinations etc, team strategies. But firstly anyone should be able to just pick up a controller (or keyboard/mouse) and be able to frag and have some fun. Adding extra complication to reloading etc works against what they are trying todo with the smart system - making movement “easier”

(tokamak) #106

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;234043]How does adding more thought to something make it less of a chore? I have to wash the dishes, do you think if I had to solve a puzzle on my sink to unlock it, then press a button on time to wash a plate, which if i got wrong would smash, would make dishes more fun and engaging? No… it would piss me off. Reloading has to be done A LOT, and having to do a silly button press time event every time I reload through-out a match would just be damn annoying . Making a game more complex than it needs to be is damn annoying and will drive people away… “ffs I can’t even just simply reload in this game”. What you see as ‘adding depth’ most will see as annoying… the replies on here should be a hint to that.

You strike me as the opposite to comp players, they want to remove stuff for the hell of it… you want to add stuff for the hell of it then hide behind the ‘it adds depth’ excuse when no one thinks the same. You may think it does, the vast majority don’t.[/QUOTE]

Paying attention to the reload is optional. Players can chose to engage in wider complexity only if they want to. I have repeated this and elaborated on it a lot, in this thread but nobody seems to willing to pick up this point.

You won’t ever hear someone say 'ffs I can’t even just simply reload in this game" simply because the whole mechanic isn’t required to do a normal reload.

I wholeheartedly agree with that.

(SockDog) #107

I’ve repeatedly responded to this point. The issue is make it too easy and it’s no different to what you currently have and yet everyone needs to do more to achieve the same ends. Make it too hard and a small minority use it and you’ve have minimal impact on the overall gameplay and yet anyone inbetween is adversely affected.

To summarise. Your position that it is optional is not one I agree with.

(tokamak) #108

Your objection is that it needs to be balanced in order to work. Agreed but that counts for everything.

(DarkangelUK) #109

It’s not optional, anything that gives an advantage over those that don’t use it may on the surface look optional, but you’re forced to use it cos everyone else does or you end up being left behind. Using ironsight in ETQW is optional, but don’t use it at distance against someone that does and you’re dead… so you have no choice to use it to even the playing field… this would be no different.

(tokamak) #110

Again, only if you’re willing to accept the penalties, which is loss of concentration and the possibility of jamming you can use the fast reloading.

(DarkangelUK) #111

Yes… so something annoying and unnecessary where the annoyance severely outweighs any gains. Glad we’ve cleared that up.

(tokamak) #112
  • something you don’t need to use and don’t need to be bothered about if you don’t want it, yes. Glad we’re on the same line now.
(DarkangelUK) #113

Totally ignoring my post about it becoming non-optional at all (refute it?). In fact, ignoring everything everyone has said and the general consensus that it’s a bad idea… ego and pride don’t work in a debate like this. Learn to let go… learn

(tokamak) #114

http://splashdamage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=234064&postcount=110

I’m only ignoring unfounded jeers or attempts at dragging the discussion to a personal level.

(INF3RN0) #115

Everyone here fully understands exactly what this is about, but we still do not want it. This is not a right or wrong discussion. You can change just about anything in a similar way and justify it in the same way, but that does not mean it needs to be implemented. It is simply a choice of personal preference, do you want to play a classic style FPS or do you want to turn it into something else? Tokamok can keep trying to refute our reasons, but he needs to understand that just because it appeals to him, it doesn’t to everyone. It adds something “new”, but it also takes something away. And as to you regurgitating the same exact crap here like you did about how promod “limits” the game because it removes things because promod players are afraid of change, I have said a thousand times to go read the change list (which you obviously chose not to) as you might see that you had mixed it up with a server config (6v6 league format). You might make an important discovery… Congrats on being able to use italics in your post btw, but you should eat your own words next time.

(maxtalent) #116

ehh the whole active reload seems dumb to me, it worked in gears but thats a relatively slow-paced third person shooter. I guess I would be okay with it if it was tied to a perk (its like sleight of hand from cod except more annoying). This way it would be truly optional and players could actually ignore it without being penalized for slower reloading. Also those that use that perk would sacrifice another, perhaps more useful perk, thus adding more to the balance.

The throw away ammo thing seems bleh. It would work in survival shooters where your facing zombies and crap like that because they would be meleeing you so reload is more important…but i don’t like the idea of being punished because I like to keep my clip full of bullets. It could possibly work if implemented correctly i.e. you have enough ammo so you don’t get completely screwed and command posts are evenly spaced enough so you can get ammo sorta easily, so I’m still sorta on the fence about it, but it just seems kinda trivial and annoying.

(DarkangelUK) #117

[QUOTE=tokamak;234070]http://splashdamage.com/forums/showpost.php?p=234064&postcount=110

I’m only ignoring unfounded jeers or attempts at dragging the discussion to a personal level.[/QUOTE]

No you’re not, you’re putting your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALALA at the obvious down falls, and leaving your ego to leave in place the “I thought of it so it must be good” argument. So again, please refute the claim that choice is removed due to necessity.

(INF3RN0) #118

Last words about it for Toka. I do not want reloading to be distracting from the main reason I want to play this game. To Pew Pew Shoot people in the face.

And LOL @ Peggle…

(BioSnark) #119

Prove you wrong? The burden of proof is on you, buddy.

(Ragoo) #120

Imo the ideas themselves are not completely wrong.
I wouldn’t mind active reloading as long as it is just a perk, so that it is completely optional and you give away a perk slot for your fast reloading skills.
The wasting ammo idea could also be part of the weapon customization. I imagine something like a an upgraded magazine that has like 100% more bullets but the disadvantage is that you lose all the bullets left in the clip if you reload :wink:

But I don’t feel that this stuff should be forced upon me, even though it sounds like a fun tactical element.
And I definitely don’t think that the normal reload is a no-brainer. It’s already an important thing in many situation, whether you decide to reload or not to. So it’s totally not necessary to force any more complexity.

That’s 100% right. You can’t force a complex and deep metagame. It just evolves when you have a good and big community, that is competitive and cares to think about how to play the game better.
If you look at games like Quake 3 or CS, they are reeaally simple, yet have the most elaborated metagame of all FPS because of their community.

SD is doing a good job at trying to keep stuff as simple as possible (SMART, objective wheel, MP=SP) while also assuring that there is a lot you can do better (manual SMART-moves, teamplay and coordination , …). SD shouldn’t just add stuff to make the game more complicated, unless it’s either an optional perk/customization thing or server setting.

I don’t know if what I just wrote is on topic at all… but I guess it makes sense … :stuck_out_tongue:

Also: Peggle is a great game!