Reconsider Female Characters!

(zelamy) #361

[QUOTE=Exedore;203715]I don’t think it’s ridiculous, and it would be appreciated if people can keep this discussion above the more personal level some posts in this thread are at.

I do hope representations of both sexes, different races, etc can be the norm in games in the future, but we’re not quite there yet. But the first step is talking about it, and hopefully we can get there a bit quicker.[/QUOTE]

why aren’t we there yet?
what reasons are there for there not being any female options in this title other than you guys chose not to give us any.
you’ve got an extensive character creation system in place that allows for wildly different body type so why no female option?
don’t go blaming the industry when you chose to limit the options to men only.
too much work?
as a woman i’m not going to boycott a game because it features a male protagonist, often the game is written for a male lead, but a game like this where the lead is basically anybody you want them to be, provided you want them to be male, then there’s no reason why to exclude half the population.
like i said, i wouldn’t boycot a game over this but it does put it much, much lower on my list of games to buy, and 2010 is looking to be a very crowded year, games wise.
quite simply between this and a game that doesn’t ignore my half of the human race i’ll likely not choose your game.

(signofzeta) #362

There we go again with half the population blah blah blah. What percentage of earth’s population play video games? Now what percentage of females play video games? What percentage of females who play video games play first person shooters? Now what is the percentage of female gamers who play first person shooters are looking forward to this game? Now what percentage of females who play first person shooters who are looking forward to this game gives a damn that there are no female avatars in the game?

Well it sure ain’t half.

If Splash Damage did add female characters, I’ll say you are right if AND ONLY IF the number of females playing Brink roughly equal to the number of males playing Brink. If not, then it ain’t half.

For example.

All gamers are North America’s population. Gamers who aren’t looking forward to Brink are Americans.

All gamers who are looking forward to brink are Canadian.

Female gamers are Canadians living in Quebec.

Female gamers who don’t give a damn about female avatars don’t vote for the Bloc Quebecois. Because Canadians who don’t live in Quebec can’t vote for the Bloc Quebecois, and Male gamers don’t give a crap that there aren’t female avatars in Brink anyway.

Now you are saying that out of the earth’s population, half the population vote for the Bloc Quebecois? I find that absurd.

When Quebec becomes a separate state, then game developers would look forward to listening to a minority.

So I ask a fellow Canadian, 3.5 billion people vote for the Bloc Quebecois? Is this true?

(-SSF-Sage) #363

After following this thread… I’ve changed my mind. I don’t want women characters anymore. I didn’t want it earlier either, but it was ok for me. :magicpony:

(zelamy) #364

you can in saints row 2, and despite what you might think getting shot in the crotch would be pretty bloody painful and debilitating for a woman as well as a man.
or so i imagine anyway, thankfully i don’t have personal experience.

(Exedore) #365

don’t go blaming the industry when you chose to limit the options to men only.
too much work?

I simply meant that this is a pattern in action/shooter games overall; yes we made the same choice, and it does indeed have a lot to do with having limited resources. Rahdo said it best, we didn’t want to do it unless we could do it well.

Potentially lost sales is exactly what we have to live with as a consequence, and that’s how it should be. Enough people speak out about it, and it hopefully then effects how said resources are allocated by The Powers That Be. Eventually, the norm shifts entirely; this is a pattern present as any form of media matures.

(zelamy) #366

[QUOTE=signofzeta;207805]There we go again with half the population blah blah blah. What percentage of earth’s population play video games? Now what percentage of females play video games? What percentage of females who play video games play first person shooters? Now what is the percentage of female gamers who play first person shooters are looking forward to this game? Now what percentage of females who play first person shooters who are looking forward to this game gives a damn that there are no female avatars in the game?

Well it sure ain’t half.

If Splash Damage did add female characters, I’ll say you are right if AND ONLY IF the number of females playing Brink roughly equal to the number of males playing Brink. If not, then it ain’t half.[/QUOTE]
you not been following the numbers lately?
http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp
the relevant passage.
Forty percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (34 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).
maybe if your half of the population was ignored in most games then maybe you’d care.
when one of the developer says they just decided it was too expensive to add a female option i decided their game was too expensive.

(zelamy) #367

because the current armies of most countries are run by old men, jump forward a generation or two and you’ll get the higher ups in the military come from a generation where women aren’t just seen as housewives or mistresses.
and looking at the plot for brink it seems like order has pretty much broken down, in that world would you deny anybody the right to fight because they don’t have a penis?
could you afford to not make use of willing and able people because their sexual organs are on the inside?
would you risk defeat rather than fight alongside a woman?

(signofzeta) #368

[QUOTE=zelamy;207813]you not been following the numbers lately?
http://www.theesa.com/facts/index.asp
the relevant passage.
Forty percent of all game players are women. In fact, women over the age of 18 represent a significantly greater portion of the game-playing population (34 percent) than boys age 17 or younger (18 percent).
maybe if your half of the population was ignored in most games then maybe you’d care.
when one of the developer says they just decided it was too expensive to add a female option i decided their game was too expensive.[/QUOTE]

This is for every single game out there, not just this one. I’m talking about female gamers who play first person shooters. I’m talking about female gamers who are looking forward to this game. I’m talking about female gamers who actually give a damn about having female avatars in game. Because right now, there are some that are like, meh, maybe next game. For example, my sister. Even if there were female avatars in first person shooters, she doesn’t even give a damn about first person shooters, because she never plays them. She prefers music and beat like games. And she’s a casual gamer too. And that already counts as part of the 40% of female gamers.

Also look at my analogy to Canadian politics. You are saying 300 million people, representing half of the population of North America, which according to my analogy, are gamers, vote for the Bloc Quebecois. Every Canadian knows that this is absurd.

I dare you to recruit female gamers to play this game, to ask Splash Damage to add in female avatars, and the number of females must equal to the number of males already looking forward to this game. I dare you. And if your recruitments don’t even give a damn if there are female avatars in the game or not, then those females don’t count.

The first step I suggest is to get Splash Damage to at least hire some female game designers first. Without female input, it is no wonder that there aren’t female avatars in game. As there are more females taking computer science courses, and majoring in computer science, then maybe the addition of female characters would come true, especially when a game developer is dominated by males who only know how to make games for men.

Now I ask fellow gamers. In a game where the genre is all violence, and whatever females typically don’t like, in a game where there is a female character, a playable one at that, one that isn’t a sex object to men, in all cases, is there at least a few female game designers in that company who made that game? So the reason why there aren’t female avatars has something to do with Splash Damage not having enough females in their ranks. Also the fact that females who give a damn about Brink having female avatars isn’t 40%. And without a female’s input, they sure as heck don’t want to mess things up.

(tokamak) #369

Very bold claim, but I assume you all got the statistics about this particular field in sociology at hand no?

(zelamy) #370

no, no statistics, just my opinion, but i know a little history, very little admittedly, and historically women were not allowed in the military, with each new generation women have become more accepted, generally it’s the younger generations that are more open to new ideas, like female soldiers.
now if only the armies can rid themselves of their ludicrous homophobia, does the us army still not allow any soldier to be openly gay?
but hey, i’ve nothing against anybody being homophobic, just so long as they do it in the privacy of their own homes.:smiley:

(zelamy) #371

[QUOTE=Exedore;207811]I simply meant that this is a pattern in action/shooter games overall; yes we made the same choice, and it does indeed have a lot to do with having limited resources. Rahdo said it best, we didn’t want to do it unless we could do it well.

Potentially lost sales is exactly what we have to live with as a consequence, and that’s how it should be. Enough people speak out about it, and it hopefully then effects how said resources are allocated by The Powers That Be. Eventually, the norm shifts entirely; this is a pattern present as any form of media matures.[/QUOTE]

like i said i don’t think many will boycott a title over something like this, even i’m not that militant, but it will be a minor factor in many women’s choice.
i will admit you have a much more valid reason for your decision than many games, not just shooters, i’ve seen, most have no customisation yet still refuse to offer a female option.
and at least you looked at the option, not so annoyed about this as i was before i visited the forums, still a little peeved though:mad:

i would like to see the option for female player characters in any sequel and maybe added to this one with dlc.

what many devs and publishers have to remember these days is that almost half their potential audience now are female.

one last question, any chance of a demo before release?:smiley:

(SPC. Angseth) #372

I must say Im quite surprised my thread is still ongoing, guess I did caused something of a revolution didn’t I?

Its just sad that, as much as this discussion is still going, nothing that has been said or done here will affect the forward decision of including females, whether its at release or as DLC.

Watching the customization video released a couple of days ago was really nice, I like the models and the variety, but it just feels bland, why does every game force players to fight as men? Id understand this if we were living in the 80s, when women were seen as the pretty princess to be rescued, not the action hero to kick ass and take names we see today.

I wonder how much of what has been said here could actually get to the higher ups and let them know about it.

I think that a thread like this, which is still going months after its creation means something, I like to think that its interest in the subject, or perhaps Im wrong?

(Nail) #373

nah, it’s just an easy topic to incite posting

(signofzeta) #374

it’s just that Splash Damage has 2 options. Add female characters OR, increase the amount of customization in the already built male models. They chose the latter. Why? They think there are going to be more males than females playing this, and making a community out of this anyway. They can’t choose both or risk increasing the cost of the game. Originally the game had female models, and the weighed out the pros and the cons, and decided that they want to support the existing community, which is mostly male anyway, instead of what wolfenstein did, where they tried to attract new players instead of supporting the existing community.

A second thing is, they just don’t want to mess up the female models. They are good at making male models, and if they made female models, they don’t want to get into deep trouble by one person placing the blame on Splash Damage for some feature that is present, or lacking in their female models. Not to mention, the designers of these things are mostly men anyway.

(SPC. Angseth) #375

So? :rolleyes:

That hasn’t stopped a bunch of other games not to include them, and this argument you just made is pointless.

Your telling me men have to write about men in books because their men? wow…

(-SSF-Sage) #376

[humor]
Are you saying that the SD guys never saw a women, because they are making a game? Gamedevs aren’t always stinky geeks nowadays. And there are some women in SD too.
[/humor]

(signofzeta) #377

You know those multiple choice questions that go “Blah blah blah most likely blah blah?” Then you get 4 or 5 answers that are all correct in one situation, but there can only be one correct answer?

Ok I digress.

But I’m talking probability here. Now take every one of my claims, and put in probabilities.

Now about the all male design team, no female model thing. There is probably a higher chance that there is going to be female models if there was a few females in the design team to influence the design. And of course all my posts that don’t make sense talking about how males and females think differently etc. Of course there are a few stragglers, but think probability.

Second one is with the not satisfying half the gamer population because they are female. Now adding probability to that, what are the chances that a female gamer will touch a FPS game? What are the chances that a female FPS gamer will touch this game?

Third one is Splash Damage’s decision using probability. But I ask, did SD pick male customization over female avatars because they know of a higher chance of sales with male customization over female avatars? Not to mention that they know that there is a higher chance of screwing up if they added female avatars as Rahdo stated, they aren’t going to do it unless they are going to do it well, along those lines, which ties nicely to the first 2 probabilities here.

The thing I’m trying to say is, why do you think that you, as female gamers who love FPS games and happen to come upon Brink, represent the entire female gamer population, when you know that probably some of them are counted as gamers when they touched a video game once a year, from those who play video games more often, some of them don’t even touch FPS games, and from those who do touch FPS games, that they aren’t already a diehard fan of another FPS franchise?

I mean look at Wolfenstein. There probably would be a higher chance of sales if they kept with the old formula and not copied Call of Duty, when Modern Warfare 2 would be released a few months after Wolfenstein’s release, but they took the chance and now the game didn’t sell as well as it should.

The decision SD made was to sacrifice a playerbase that they thought was not a lot, in favor of adding something that they know that will attract even more players. And if you say that SD is sacrificing half of the gamers, then re-read fifth paragraph.

Maybe I wasn’t clear in my other posts, but I was posting with probability in mind and what I think is most likely to happen, hence the blurb in the first paragraph.

(SPC. Angseth) #378

[QUOTE=signofzeta;208272]You know those multiple choice questions that go “Blah blah blah most likely blah blah?” Then you get 4 or 5 answers that are all correct in one situation, but there can only be one correct answer?

Ok I digress.

But I’m talking probability here. Now take every one of my claims, and put in probabilities.

Now about the all male design team, no female model thing. There is probably a higher chance that there is going to be female models if there was a few females in the design team to influence the design. And of course all my posts that don’t make sense talking about how males and females think differently etc. Of course there are a few stragglers, but think probability.

Second one is with the not satisfying half the gamer population because they are female. Now adding probability to that, what are the chances that a female gamer will touch a FPS game? What are the chances that a female FPS gamer will touch this game?

Third one is Splash Damage’s decision using probability. But I ask, did SD pick male customization over female avatars because they know of a higher chance of sales with male customization over female avatars? Not to mention that they know that there is a higher chance of screwing up if they added female avatars as Rahdo stated, they aren’t going to do it unless they are going to do it well, along those lines, which ties nicely to the first 2 probabilities here.

The thing I’m trying to say is, why do you think that you, as female gamers who love FPS games and happen to come upon Brink, represent the entire female gamer population, when you know that probably some of them are counted as gamers when they touched a video game once a year, from those who play video games more often, some of them don’t even touch FPS games, and from those who do touch FPS games, that they aren’t already a diehard fan of another FPS franchise?

I mean look at Wolfenstein. There probably would be a higher chance of sales if they kept with the old formula and not copied Call of Duty, when Modern Warfare 2 would be released a few months after Wolfenstein’s release, but they took the chance and now the game didn’t sell as well as it should.

The decision SD made was to sacrifice a playerbase that they thought was not a lot, in favor of adding something that they know that will attract even more players. And if you say that SD is sacrificing half of the gamers, then re-read fifth paragraph.

Maybe I wasn’t clear in my other posts, but I was posting with probability in mind and what I think is most likely to happen, hence the blurb in the first paragraph.[/QUOTE]

I think your missing the point here, this isn’t about equality only about having female characters with the intention to please a female userbase. This is mostly about giving players an option, which in itself is a customization option just like picking a race in a fantasy MMO.

Would you really like to play as a human in a fantasy MMO setting that has other fantasy creatures and never ask yourself “gee, it would be nice to play as that orc warrior” I know I would, because to me and to a lot of other players, customization is a big deal when it comes to games that allow it.

Granted, Brink lets us customize our characters, but it does so in a limited fashion, one that caters to having only male models, which no matter how many outfits, hairs and skins they put in, will have a limit and your going to be seeing players with the same look very often.

Imagine having female and male models, now, 25 clothing will go for each, instead of 50 for males only. With females in the equation, you have clothing that is varied and a lot more creative than just plain male ones, thus increasing the amount of unique characters you will see out there. Sure, you will see females that look a like, just like males, but the fact that their not ALL males is the thing here, you will be seeing a mix of both.

Being a male dominated environment for the most part, doesn’t mean anything, a lot of male gamers like to play as female avatars and it doesnt mean their perverts or they want to be women, its that they want to play something different and its a shame thats not going to happen here.

(signofzeta) #379

[QUOTE=SPC. Angseth;208274]I think your missing the point here, this isn’t about equality only about having female characters with the intention to please a female userbase. This is mostly about giving players an option, which in itself is a customization option just like picking a race in a fantasy MMO.

Would you really like to play as a human in a fantasy MMO setting that has other fantasy creatures and never ask yourself “gee, it would be nice to play as that orc warrior” I know I would, because to me and to a lot of other players, customization is a big deal when it comes to games that allow it.

Granted, Brink lets us customize our characters, but it does so in a limited fashion, one that caters to having only male models, which no matter how many outfits, hairs and skins they put in, will have a limit and your going to be seeing players with the same look very often.

Imagine having female and male models, now, 25 clothing will go for each, instead of 50 for males only. With females in the equation, you have clothing that is varied and a lot more creative than just plain male ones, thus increasing the amount of unique characters you will see out there. Sure, you will see females that look a like, just like males, but the fact that their not ALL males is the thing here, you will be seeing a mix of both.

Being a male dominated environment for the most part, doesn’t mean anything, a lot of male gamers like to play as female avatars and it doesnt mean their perverts or they want to be women, its that they want to play something different and its a shame thats not going to happen here.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know the reason behind the omitting of female avatars, but I have given theories of mine in what the guys at SD are thinking. If more male gamers will cry over missing customizations than females crying over missing gender, then that was the decision SD made. Also Exedore quoted Rahdo on them not risking messing things up with the female avatars and such, but it’s done now, just walk it off and pretend nothing happened. Maybe next game, with higher budget and more resources, they may add female avatars in their next title, whenever it may be announced.

And it isn’t the clothing we’re talking about. Animations, drawings, designs, and all that are taken into account as well.

(SPC. Angseth) #380

That never stopped games like Saints Row 2, which let males and females use the same clothes, animations and voices.

But your right, the decision has been taken.