PUGs and Scrimms

(Violator) #61

It was fun for the most part (until LB) but the 6v6 can get very chaotic (speaking from the pov of a pub player who used to play comp in ET). I still have serious frame lag / tracking problems due to crappy PC etc. on anything above 4v4 so that didn’t help, but from a team POV it is hard to co-ordinate regroupings without a spawn timer. It does feel a tad spammy on the smaller maps esp the smaller ones such as WC (esp. the last objective) & WL. I did get a nice mid-air snipe on Mustang though ;). Nades are a bit hit and miss atm, very hard to judge without a timer.

(Mustang) #62

And he wouldn’t shut-up about it. :smiley:

(Violator) #63

QFT :smiley: I think DB needs an instagib mode, used to love that in the Q2/Q3 era.

(Aseph) #64

Can someone explain to me what they mean by spawn timer and nade timer?

I like the idea of using skill to determine how long to cook a nade, having a timer for this seems like it would take away from some of the skill required to use the cooking feature. Just my opinion.

Edit: Plus, it’s always awesome to see someone mis-judge a nade cook time and blow themselves up. If you aren’t skilled enough to use it, then you get exploded! :eek:

(INF3RN0) #65

[QUOTE=Aseph;452420]Can someone explain to me what they mean by spawn timer and nade timer?

I like the idea of using skill to determine how long to cook a nade, having a timer for this seems like it would take away from some of the skill required to use the cooking feature. Just my opinion.

Edit: Plus, it’s always awesome to see someone mis-judge a nade cook time and blow themselves up. If you aren’t skilled enough to use it, then you get exploded! :eek:[/QUOTE]

Spawn timer displays when your next spawn wave will be so that you can respawn and regroup with your team.

The nade timer displays the time until your nade explodes on your HUD in some manner aka cooking. Not sure why you think counting in your head is skill though…

(Aseph) #66

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;452421]Spawn timer displays when your next spawn wave will be so that you can respawn and regroup with your team.

The nade timer displays the time until your nade explodes on your HUD in some manner aka cooking. Not sure why you think counting in your head is skill though…[/QUOTE]

Some people can judge cook times perfectly so that the nade blows up in your face, others might not have the right judgement skills and the nade would explode at the wrong time. How is it not a skill to be able to maintain movement, battle awareness, timing judgement etc in the middle of an intense fire fight?

If adding a timer makes it easier, conversely, removing the timer would make it harder (requiring more skill).

(Mustang) #67

Or it’s just being awkward for awkward’s sake.

(Aseph) #68

Very constructive feedback… care to elaborate?

I actually get satisfaction from being able to time a nade perfectly without the aid of a timer. What’s so awkward about that? Seems pretty skill based to me.

Anyhow, this is my opinion and I would only have myself to blame if I didn’t voice my opinions and explain my reasons for them.

(INF3RN0) #69

Everyone can count to 6 lol… It’s just a matter of convenience. Timing when you actually start cooking a nade and then throwing it where you want is maybe skill. Otherwise out of all of the years and years playing with cooked nades I don’t think they ever took very much skill, but more so lucky opportunity and positioning.

(Aseph) #70

Convenience makes something easier, that’s difficult to refute. For example, it’s convenient to have your ammo count on the HUD so you know how many bullets are still in your clip. There are some games that add hardcore modes that take away these HUD conveniences making it harder and requiring more skill.

I’m not advocating removing the ammo count indicator as I’m far to used to it, but I’m also against having the notion of a hardcore mode as it splits the player base (some people will play only hardcore mode and others will play only normal mode). If we have one single mode it would promote a stronger unified player base but we would have to find a balance of convenience and skill based elements. I think everyone can agree that having no visual indication of your ammo count makes it much harder to play. The same goes for nade timers, nade indicators, enemies appearing on your minimap etc.

A good game would strike a balance between skill and convenience (ease of use), adding every convenience would make the game too easy and removing all conveniences would make the game too hard. I’m simply suggesting that the nade timer is one convenience we could do without and would please the players who enjoy a little bit more required skill.

Obviously, every person has their own opinion on which conveniences they’d like to keep and which they’d like to throw out. I hope we can agree on one thing, adding all conveniences possible is not the way to go, nor is removing all of them. Balance is key!

(INF3RN0) #71

[QUOTE=Aseph;452438]Convenience makes something easier, that’s difficult to refute. For example, it’s convenient to have your ammo count on the HUD so you know how many bullets are still in your clip. There are some games that add hardcore modes that take away these HUD conveniences making it harder and requiring more skill.
[/QUOTE]

I’m going to assume you didn’t play a lot of the previous SD games? I was simply pointing out this is such a miniscule “skill” that either way your not going to change much. HUD display is more convenient, but the loss in skill is highly insignificant because it was barely there to begin with.

(Aseph) #72

The amount of convenience lost has a direct correlation with the amount of skill required. Playing previous SD games does not change this.

If the skill required was insignificant then the convenience gained would be equally insignificant. I feel like I’m repeating myself, so I might simply be misunderstanding the concept you are attempting to communicate.

As long as SD understands my point about balancing skill and convenience I’m happy with whatever they choose. Finding a balance means some players will have to accept compromise and that’s fine with me.

On a side note, this Tapir smiley is awesome, I need to find ways to use it more.
:stroggtapir:

(INF3RN0) #73

[QUOTE=Aseph;452449]The amount of convenience lost has a direct correlation with the amount of skill required. Playing previous SD games does not change this.

If the skill required was insignificant then the convenience gained would be equally insignificant. I feel like I’m repeating myself, so I might simply be misunderstanding the concept you are attempting to communicate.
[/QUOTE]

To reiterate for a last time, nade cooking has been present in the past SD games. There’s been both the ticking sound and hud display, and in my opinion the mastery of counting or looking at the hud counter was not even close to being a skill when it came to nades; the skill involves completely different parts of nading. The question here is do we want people to be forced to count the clicks (which anyone can do instantly without practice) or do we want to just simplify what already doesn’t take any ounce of skill and just make it part of the visual hud. Having played both I prefer the hud as the indicator because I find it less of a distraction and at no loss of skill/content, but having both would be fine by me. You’d spend your efforts better trying to increase skill in more realistically significant ways.

(Raviolay) #74

Sitting watching that match play through, it has become quite clear even with 5v5 on that second stage the defenders can cover all the attackers entry points. So long as one stays in a overwatch position ether on or around the MG, don’t get me wrong you could get shot in the back by the MG. However any electric gate side attack would get a call out and warn of backrape. It’s almost the same story albeit a worse one, in Canary Wharf’s 1st stage. Any flank or sneak attack is going to get called as you wait for a elevator to a balcony that is going to be covered by defenders. Or you can run head on into bullets from the get go.

(Ashog) #75

I don’t agree with Aseph at all. What I’m talking about is not a hud timer, but a sound timer, perhaps 3 beeps or ticks like in QWTF or ETQW. Having no timer is extremely silly. Priming nades is skill but if you prime nades every match every spawn every day, sometimes 2 or more times a spawn - imagine what is the chance of miscounting a nade? This is unnecessary complication having no connection to nade skill. It also depends on how often you use nades.

Another point that everyone misses here is that, one thing is to prime and cook a nade so that it explodes in front of someones face in a window or at 5 meter distance - here time measurement of hundreds of milliseconds counts.

And totally another thing is to prime and cook a nade while dancing in close quarters combat with a guy or two in the room - everyone is moving quickly and shooting at you too. My task is always in such cases (and it happens often, every second spawn or so) to explode a nade in someone’s face WHILE BEING CA. 1 METER AWAY FROM HIM and not die in the process. Here the time measurement of dozens of milliseconds counts.

In the second case you MUST heavily rely on a ticker/counter, ESPECIALLY with the weak grenades of DB. Every once in a while it happens that one blows himself by underestimating a couple of dozens of milliseconds, which is alright because it pays off greatly in 80 further cases. However this mustn’t be happening so often - it is clearly felt that the absence of timer has an impact on the frequency of such explosions, this frequency being much higher than in any of SD games and other nade-based games I played for the last 17 years.

(Fendah) #76

Here is my little statement regarding the draft game yesterday. I heard/read a lot about 6on6 being not suitable in DB, I can’t agree or disagree at this point in time. For me it is to early to jugde on this, as it was my first “real” prac game.
The one thing I can say is that the lack of a respawntimer, which atleast shows your next spawnwave, leads to weird situations. Personally found myself out of ammo at my two-handed and one-handed weapon two or three times and i didn’t know if I should selfkill now. Also, any team/ingameleader will have a hard time to organise attacks, because he needs the time differences between att and def in order to choose the best split or rush.
Secondly the maps got a layout problem.

They are mostly: A—X–B (for each stage)
They should be: A–B--X

A - Att. spawnpoint
B - Def spawnpoint
X - Objective

Keep in mind this is just rough layout. Overall two rules have to apply. Defence is closer to the objective (applies) and attack has to get pass and/or behind the defencerespawn (doesn’t apply).
Another layout problem, they are no “real” ways to flank the objective areas, atleast at some stages. LB 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th stage, CW 2nd, 5th stage.

But, I had some fun doing revive trains, eventho from time to time they felt useless. Didn’t have as much success as in W:ET for example. GG :slight_smile:

(Mustang) #77

Do you have any examples from other games that are ABX?

(Nail) #78

single player games are abx

(.N.E.R.D.) #79

we need more real comp info to see what’s up and therefore I encourage building MIXTEAMS again !!!

(.N.E.R.D.) #80

Ok, I am going to go a little more into detail since the last thread proved to be fruitless :wink:
What I want is a mixteam like (and please don’t be offended if your nick is not here) Samurai, wolle, outcider, potty, funky etc. that does scrims on their own and do their own tactics that we can play against and I am sure we would get our ass handed to us which is ok. So we would get to do tactics and play maps on real comp conditions which is not the case atm. I know the game is not in a final stage but a) that would be challenging and fun and b) this would also give good showmatches. Tell me what you think.