Phantom-needs work fast

(ClemClem7) #21

^ this

@Watsyurdeal
How do you always have good ideas on balancing the mercs. (I remember of your good idea on sparks balance few weeks ago)

(TheStrangerous) #22

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;187885”]Just turn his EMP field into an EMP Grenade, remove the armor and make him less visible when walking, keep the same visibility he has while running though.

Then he’d be pretty damn good imo[/quote]

I’d argue it should be an EMP taser shooting EMP projectile. To keep it stealth style, and reminiscent of “Optically Channeled Potentiator” from Splinter Cell Chaos Theory (good ol’ stealth game). It was a device attatched to your pistol, which disabled electrical devices, especially lights.

But an EMP grenade could work too.

(Szakalot) #23

EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.

(yesser) #24

i’am with the emp grenade that would make at least phontom detectable by mines and also more stealthy since sometime if someone deploy and it doesnt work he would start shooting in walls to find phontom :stuck_out_tongue:

(watsyurdeal) #25

[quote=“Szakalot;188031”]EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.[/quote]

Because his ability to be invisible SUCKS

What part of that do you not understand? He wouldn’t need armor if he wasn’t visible to the enemy. And an enemy that can basically tank damage like that when you can clearly see him is not fun to fight, at all.

(Szakalot) #26

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;188054”][quote=“Szakalot;188031”]EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.[/quote]

Because his ability to be invisible SUCKS

What part of that do you not understand? He wouldn’t need armor if he wasn’t visible to the enemy. And an enemy that can basically tank damage like that when you can clearly see him is not fun to fight, at all. [/quote]

its either completely invisible or visible a bit, and a bit will ALWAYS be enough for good players to see. Thats why its so hard to balance invisibility.

Complete invisibility is either OP (when moving) or useless (when not moving). Not moving but perfectly invisible will only suit griefing noobs on pubs, it has almost no use in comp.

Armor is much easier to play with, and fits the game more, plus it suits the hit&run Phantom tactics better (armor allows you to get advantageous position, and get out of dodge without losing too much HP)

(watsyurdeal) #27

[quote=“Szakalot;188062”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;188054”][quote=“Szakalot;188031”]EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.[/quote]

Because his ability to be invisible SUCKS

What part of that do you not understand? He wouldn’t need armor if he wasn’t visible to the enemy. And an enemy that can basically tank damage like that when you can clearly see him is not fun to fight, at all. [/quote]

its either completely invisible or visible a bit, and a bit will ALWAYS be enough for good players to see. Thats why its so hard to balance invisibility.

Complete invisibility is either OP (when moving) or useless (when not moving). Not moving but perfectly invisible will only suit griefing noobs on pubs, it has almost no use in comp.

Armor is much easier to play with, and fits the game more, plus it suits the hit&run Phantom tactics better (armor allows you to get advantageous position, and get out of dodge without losing too much HP)[/quote]

It’s really not, fully invisible, can’t attack while invisible.

You can’t do anything else while you’re cooking your grenade right? Same concept, you equip it like any piece of gear, use it, then turn it off or switch weapons when you’re done.

Cloak should be a positioning tool, not a damage sponge.

(Equanimity) #28

It is, after all, called “refractive armor”. When his armor actually could absorb more than two bullets it allowed for a lot of skilled usage to absorb decent portions of explosives and/or even sniper shots, and in general, as Szakalot mentions a useful buffer for fleeing a bad engagement. It simply makes sense for Phantom’s playstyle and otherwise lack of utility. Slapping the EMP on him was a silly band-aid with what would seem very little forethought and actually turned out to essentially be a nerf with the non-discussed changes they made to his cloak CD and armor amount.

(Szakalot) #29

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;188066”][quote=“Szakalot;188062”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;188054”][quote=“Szakalot;188031”]EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.[/quote]

Because his ability to be invisible SUCKS

What part of that do you not understand? He wouldn’t need armor if he wasn’t visible to the enemy. And an enemy that can basically tank damage like that when you can clearly see him is not fun to fight, at all. [/quote]

its either completely invisible or visible a bit, and a bit will ALWAYS be enough for good players to see. Thats why its so hard to balance invisibility.

Complete invisibility is either OP (when moving) or useless (when not moving). Not moving but perfectly invisible will only suit griefing noobs on pubs, it has almost no use in comp.

Armor is much easier to play with, and fits the game more, plus it suits the hit&run Phantom tactics better (armor allows you to get advantageous position, and get out of dodge without losing too much HP)[/quote]

It’s really not, fully invisible, can’t attack while invisible.

You can’t do anything else while you’re cooking your grenade right? Same concept, you equip it like any piece of gear, use it, then turn it off or switch weapons when you’re done.

Cloak should be a positioning tool, not a damage sponge. [/quote]

meh, how do you see that viable? The only way that would work is if phantom was COMPLETELY silent and COMPLETELY invisible (which would cause huge amounts of whine on pubs), and even then its likely too slow - while the rest of the team is trying to push obj.

In DB you need firepower and you need it NOW, not after a major setup operation to put a single KEK in a firing position.

Imo Phantom was perfect with the Run&Gun harass, he just needed a tiny bit more mobility to be able to get out of dodge. EMP is pretty useless, especially with the huge cooldown nerf. It already had all the hallmarks of the positioning tool, while being balanced and unfrustrating. He just needed an extra oomph to become viable. EMP grenade could easily be that factor, provided they revert the horrendous cooldown nerf that makes his armor/cloak pretty useless.

(ClemClem7) #30

Or make it completely invisible but loud or detectable at close range.
Invisibility is a positioning ability, not a close gap to melee ability. Or it shouldn’t be that.
Making him unable to attack while cloak is a good way to avoid melee phantom. The problem is the way he’s designed from the beginning (scrubs trailer and katana) make him a melee for noobs merc. But good players use him with his guns.
See @Amerika


One of the best player I’ve seen and he don’t stab everyone with phantom.

(Supersneaky) #31

Make phantoms cloak beam down a permanent kira Lazer, his katana spray molotov and give him thunders concussion grenade as a second ability, then phantom might be good. … might.

(fluorescentUrchin) #32

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;188054”][quote=“Szakalot;188031”]EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.[/quote]

Because his ability to be invisible SUCKS

What part of that do you not understand? He wouldn’t need armor if he wasn’t visible to the enemy. And an enemy that can basically tank damage like that when you can clearly see him is not fun to fight, at all. [/quote]

On the subject of his invisibility sucking, its really easy to see him even if you are walking. I was using my camo and walking around the edge of the first objective on dome when i was shot by a sniper and finished off by a kira, and i wasn’t even “detected”

(Nibbles02) #33

Walking makes you as visible as if you sprint, you’re only ever totally invisible(and not even that, because Phantom’s cloak still shimmers a bit, which is visible from your perspective as well to indicate that) when standing still. You’re also less likely to be seen when crouching, so that’s also a good idea.

(Supersneaky) #34

The reason why it’s so easy to spot phantom is because most run at ground level not jumping, you gotta move fast wall long jumping etc. If you don’t wanna be shot at

(Nibbles02) #35

Phantom is meant for flanking and breaking up enemy advances, but his speed and health make him better for ranged combat than CQC and melee. You can get up to an enemy, but most mercs will be able to back-strafe out of Katana range after the first swing, so melee with Phantom can be totally useless if you don’t catch your enemies off-guard. Of course, tha Katana is still good for massacring congested areas where the whole enemy team is set up on one med station.

He’s also pretty unique in that he has the Blishlok as well as the heavy pistols and a Katana, meaning he has huge stopping power and range, so using his Katana as a primary weapon isn’t really as advisable as people believe it is.

(watsyurdeal) #36

[quote=“Szakalot;188089”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;188066”][quote=“Szakalot;188062”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;188054”][quote=“Szakalot;188031”]EMP grenade would work. Revert all armor changes and just give him the emp grenade, 5-10sec disable (depending on explosion radius) at one grenade every 40-60seconds.

do NOT remove armor from the Phantom, thats his only real asset in the game.[/quote]

Because his ability to be invisible SUCKS

What part of that do you not understand? He wouldn’t need armor if he wasn’t visible to the enemy. And an enemy that can basically tank damage like that when you can clearly see him is not fun to fight, at all. [/quote]

its either completely invisible or visible a bit, and a bit will ALWAYS be enough for good players to see. Thats why its so hard to balance invisibility.

Complete invisibility is either OP (when moving) or useless (when not moving). Not moving but perfectly invisible will only suit griefing noobs on pubs, it has almost no use in comp.

Armor is much easier to play with, and fits the game more, plus it suits the hit&run Phantom tactics better (armor allows you to get advantageous position, and get out of dodge without losing too much HP)[/quote]

It’s really not, fully invisible, can’t attack while invisible.

You can’t do anything else while you’re cooking your grenade right? Same concept, you equip it like any piece of gear, use it, then turn it off or switch weapons when you’re done.

Cloak should be a positioning tool, not a damage sponge. [/quote]

meh, how do you see that viable? The only way that would work is if phantom was COMPLETELY silent and COMPLETELY invisible (which would cause huge amounts of whine on pubs), and even then its likely too slow - while the rest of the team is trying to push obj.

In DB you need firepower and you need it NOW, not after a major setup operation to put a single KEK in a firing position.

Imo Phantom was perfect with the Run&Gun harass, he just needed a tiny bit more mobility to be able to get out of dodge. EMP is pretty useless, especially with the huge cooldown nerf. It already had all the hallmarks of the positioning tool, while being balanced and unfrustrating. He just needed an extra oomph to become viable. EMP grenade could easily be that factor, provided they revert the horrendous cooldown nerf that makes his armor/cloak pretty useless.[/quote]

@Szakalot

How do I see it working? Really? What part of full invis wouldn’t be useful? This isn’t TF2, where the stealth class is a one trick pony with backstabs, Phantom actually has good weapons and isn’t limited by his range. He can get into position, switch weapons or turn cloak off, which takes literally 125 to 250 miliseconds at the most, and he can start ripping into people. Catching them by surprise, causing them to panic, then he can run around the corner, activate cloak, and disappear to retreat and get some health and ammo.

He’d be just as good of a ambush or harassment class if not better, because now the only thing that could cause him to be seen is the spotting from Red Eye, Aimee, or Vasilli, beyond that, he can get in completely undetected, kill some folk, then get out.

And him being completely invisible and silent wouldn’t be op in the slightest since he HAS to reveal himself to attack, the whine would happen no matter how you buff him. I don’t really care about terrible players complaining he’s op, even though he’d have clear risks and counters, I care about making him viable and useful in high skill environments.

If he can’t be 100% invisible, he might as well not even HAVE cloak, hence the armor, and that in itself is broken. He’s faster than Thunder, yet can take about as much abuse before his cloak gives up, 75 damage give or take then his regular health starts taking abuse. Admittedly, it’s bull shit, because people can clearly see you, yet you can rush at them and melee them to death. THAT is what people hated, not the invisibility, not the melee focused gameplay, but the fact they can clearly see him, and can do nothing about him at that point.

At least with the alternative, Phantom would still be the best ambush merc, able to get in and get the picks his team needs, then move on. As far as I am concerned, Phantom’s Run and Gun style I could easily do with other mercs, minus the tanking of damage, and have more useful abilities for my team. Nader, Sawbonez, Fletcher, all good examples. Even the EMP nade wouldn’t be enough beside being occasionally used to clear the point of mines and turrets, or numerous Auras. Beyond that, I could think of plenty of reason to use other mercs with him being fixed the way you proposed.

And just for clarity, I don’t mind him keeping his ability to attack while cloaked. But his visibility and movement need to be consistent, there’s no reason why if I am sitting still, I shouldn’t be completely invisible, or walking visibility should be the same as sprinting visibility. If they want to go with the Predator style of cloak, then they could at least make it not suck for anything but standing still.

(TheStrangerous) #37

I think the biggest issue with the Phantom, is the lack of stealthy Primary weapon that fires.

SMG’s aren’t so stealthy, it seems SD inteded him to be melee merc, much like TF2 spy, but seeing how back then. he was accused for being OP, they changed their mind.

I mean, hey, he had PDP in the beta, very stealthy gun, but oh boy, that musta been more OP…

(watsyurdeal) #38

SMGs are plenty stealthy, the problem is positioning, he can’t get to where he needs to be easily.