"omg phantom is op"

(Potato_Ladder) #21

Any time there’s a game with no phantoms everybody cheers.[/quote]
I’m definitely not part of that crowd since I kill him with cricket bat few times while playing Sparks.

(Rjsto) #22

He’s not op, not really. Only thing I find grinding my gears is how he can attack from stealth, seeing how this gives him quite an advantage on 1 on 1 firefights too. There would be easy fix for it really, i think they should take the idea straight from tf2: you can’t end cloak with attack, so it has to be done manually in case you still have cloak left, and decloaking makes a noise as well as takes a second or two during which you can’ t attack

(Kalbuth) #23

Nope.

[/quote]

Can I ask why? Because atm every single time a Phantom kills me, I did spot him beforehand, had time to backpedal, freak out, miss a lot and get killed.
And I keep getting splashed by airstrike tail end not even targetting me as I jump out of a building, because half the opposite team is skyhammer and spam airstrike non stop, and it makes me cringe 100x more than any phantom.
In terms of cheap, coming out of nowhere, unblockable death, Phantom is really not on the top of my list. He’s surely OP and needs nerf, but he didn’t “kill the game” for being there, there are and were since the beginning of DB plenty more crappy death causes. People just got used to them and now find them normal. Because Phantom is severely OP, they cry that it’s conceptually not fitting DB, because “cheap death”.
Cheap death exist in DB for months. I can get 4+ kills with Kira free by waving a laser in the general direction of a rock with ennemies hiding, a Skyhammer can anihilate a spawn wave on Chapel last obj by throwing a grenade when spawn starts. Isn’t that the definition of cheap? But it’s acceptable. Suddenly, when Phantom is there, cheap death is not acceptable anymore. Even so you have more way of countering it, since you usually can spot Phantom.

Remove shield, reduce Katana hit window, and he’s a done deal. Suddenly fitting the game.
“Invisible guy doesn’t fit DB” is BS since there are plenty of worse way of killing/dying already in the game. Just balance Phantom.

(Ghosthree3) #24

[quote=“Kalbuth;45353”]Can I ask why? Because atm every single time a Phantom kills me, I did spot him beforehand, had time to backpedal, freak out, miss a lot and get killed.
And I keep getting splashed by airstrike tail end not even targetting me as I jump out of a building, because half the opposite team is skyhammer and spam airstrike non stop, and it makes me cringe 100x more than any phantom.
In terms of cheap, coming out of nowhere, unblockable death, Phantom is really not on the top of my list. He’s surely OP and needs nerf, but he didn’t “kill the game” for being there, there are and were since the beginning of DB plenty more crappy death causes. People just got used to them and now find them normal. Because Phantom is severely OP, they cry that it’s conceptually not fitting DB, because “cheap death”.
Cheap death exist in DB for months. I can get 4+ kills with Kira free by waving a laser in the general direction of a rock with ennemies hiding, a Skyhammer can anihilate a spawn wave on Chapel last obj by throwing a grenade when spawn starts. Isn’t that the definition of cheap? But it’s acceptable. Suddenly, when Phantom is there, cheap death is not acceptable anymore. Even so you have more way of countering it, since you usually can spot Phantom.[/quote]
What’s funny is that Phantom puts himself in a lot more risk than all the cheap kills users you listed.

(DMaster2) #25

It is op. I went with a positive k/d on my first game with phantom with it’s basic loadout (no augments). Nothing impressive? If you consider i still struggle to go positive with a bronze Fragger, because i totally suck with mercs other than Vassili that is quite a feat.

Even if they nerf Phantom the game is still less enjoyable than before, just because Phantom exists. In fact the only games that i enjoy are the ones without phantoms on the opponent’s team.

(Jojack) #26


Been steady too. The ups and downs are due to different time zones btw.
[/quote]

Shouldn’t you expect the game to be growing more in the last 30 days? I mean, Open Beta, more exposure, more advertising…same player population? That doesn’t seem good. Lots of people are trying the game out right now. What that graphic tells me is that almost all of them that have tried are moving on.

Would be nice to keep a lot of those new players.

(Kalbuth) #27

I’ll ask again, WHY?
I really can’t understand this “Phantom existence breaks the game” motto.
It’s OP, ok, nerf it. You’ll then see he fits perfectly and will be just one of the 10+ annoyances in the game…

(B_Montiel) #28

Not to mention the double credit week-end. All former double rate week-ends saw population peaks happening. Not this one. Although this should have brought some fresh blood around.
Check the SteamSpy section here :
https://steamdb.info/app/333930/graphs/
The Median Playtime is low and should have increased since the open beta release. It stayed at a bottom 50 minutes in the last two weeks… For such a supposed audience and players still grinding a lot, that is incredibly poor.
Overall player stats are not that accurate here.

(shroudedMacadamia) #29

With all the promotion of the game as well as going into open beta that statistic should be going up.

(DMaster2) #30

I’ll ask again, WHY?
I really can’t understand this “Phantom existence breaks the game” motto.
It’s OP, ok, nerf it. You’ll then see he fits perfectly and will be on of the 10+ annoyances in the game…
[/quote]
Because you now have to stop the fast paced action to cover your ground and constantly check sorroundings. You change the way you play the game when you know Phantom is around. Or are you telling me you play the same way if your opponent’s team have Phantom as if Phantom wasn’t there? Also playing against an highly skilled phantom is a real game-breaking experience, it really frustrate you to the point you have to quit the game.
No surprise DB isn’t growing, new players try the game, get slaughtered by invisible ninjas and leave forever. Putting Phantom in now was a seriously horrendous marketing action from the developers.

(Borganism) #31

Once you understand the airstrike and the fact that the red line shows the path it will take, and that you can hear and look up to see the plane dropping it you can avoid 90% of them easily. Same with Kira and arty, there is a noticable (even when not paying super attention) indication that an area is about to get messed up.

If phantom is standing still just in a choke point by the time I hear his cloak and react Im already in striking distance and pretty much dead. I get frustrated by rounding a corner and getting killed by a marty from an ungibbed nader, but I still laugh. When I get killed by a phantom it just sucks the fun out of it because over half the time Im dead before I even know he is there. Maybe its my graphics settings, maybe its that I dont want to have my sound super loud when there are explosions going off all the time but I barely notice phantom unless he is sprinting, or hacking my head off. The rare occasions I do notice him I empty a clip into him and am into reloading by the time he kills me.

Hell, I was on trainyard earlier as a skyhammer and bushwhacker and getting owned by a phantom running towards our spawn while cloaked. Bumping into them around corners, by the time I pulled a gun out instead of knife he had already hit me with 3-4 quick slashes and I was dead.

I think the dev’s get the point he is OP by now, its just a matter of how to balance. Massive shield reduction (or massive health and keep shield), slight invis cooldown extension, and maybe even tweak the visuals a touch. Definitely add something to a friendly phantom so you can see where they are, and also know they arent an enemy easier.

(watsyurdeal) #32

I’ll ask again, WHY?
I really can’t understand this “Phantom existence breaks the game” motto.
It’s OP, ok, nerf it. You’ll then see he fits perfectly and will be on of the 10+ annoyances in the game…
[/quote]
Because you now have to stop the fast paced action to cover your ground and constantly check sorroundings. You change the way you play the game when you know Phantom is around. Or are you telling me you play the same way if your opponent’s team have Phantom as if Phantom wasn’t there? Also playing against an highly skilled phantom is a real game-breaking experience, it really frustrate you to the point you have to quit the game.
No surprise DB isn’t growing, new players try the game, get slaughtered by invisible ninjas and leave forever. Putting Phantom in now was a seriously horrendous marketing action from the developers.[/quote]

If you aren’t already doing this with characters like Rhino, Nader, Fragger, Vasilli, Sparks, Skyhammer, Kira, Arty, Proxy, and Bushwahacka. Then it wouldn’t matter if he was removed, because then you’d be getting killed by someone else. They ALL have mechanics that punish bad awareness.

The difference it that Phantom pretty much thrives on it, so it’s much more potent when you’re making the mistake of not paying attention to what’s going on around you.

That’s why I find this all hilarious, it’s as if you guys never had to double check what’s going on around you, or communicate to your team that a threat is nearby.


Been steady too. The ups and downs are due to different time zones btw.
[/quote]

Shouldn’t you expect the game to be growing more in the last 30 days? I mean, Open Beta, more exposure, more advertising…same player population? That doesn’t seem good. Lots of people are trying the game out right now. What that graphic tells me is that almost all of them that have tried are moving on.

Would be nice to keep a lot of those new players.[/quote]

That’s how it’s been since the game went into open beta, and there’s been 4 mercs since then. So that doesn’t tell me much other than the game doesn’t seem to get enough advertising or something to net players into trying it out.

(Kalbuth) #33

I’ll ask again, WHY?
I really can’t understand this “Phantom existence breaks the game” motto.
It’s OP, ok, nerf it. You’ll then see he fits perfectly and will be on of the 10+ annoyances in the game…
[/quote]
Because you now have to stop the fast paced action to cover your ground and constantly check sorroundings. You change the way you play the game when you know Phantom is around. Or are you telling me you play the same way if your opponent’s team have Phantom as if Phantom wasn’t there? Also playing against an highly skilled phantom is a real game-breaking experience, it really frustrate you to the point you have to quit the game.
No surprise DB isn’t growing, new players try the game, get slaughtered by invisible ninjas and leave forever. Putting Phantom in now was a seriously horrendous marketing action from the developers.[/quote]
No, I don’t play differently with or without Phantoms.
Again, he is currently OP, he gets on top of scoreboard, slaughter newcomers, we are all aware of that. And I agree.
My concern is seeing people disagree with the concept of Phantom (sneaky character). Honestly, if he makes you check your surrounding, all the best. That doesn’t mean you need to stop the fast action, tbh.

[quote=“favoriteKnife;45448”]
Once you understand the airstrike and the fact that the red line shows the path it will take, and that you can hear and look up to see the plane dropping it you can avoid 90% of them easily. Same with Kira and arty, there is a noticable (even when not paying super attention) indication that an area is about to get messed up.[/quote]Yes, I can avoid most of them. I was pointing out the frustrating ones, you know, the one you didn’t see the red line, because you were indoor, just heard the plane passing by, and nowhere near the entrance do you see any explosion, but the frag still gets you (even when you are indoor sometimes). Or the ones happening at spawn time, etc…

[quote=“favoriteKnife;45448”]
If phantom is standing still just in a choke point by the time I hear his cloak and react Im already in striking distance and pretty much dead. I get frustrated by rounding a corner and getting killed by a marty from an ungibbed nader, but I still laugh. When I get killed by a phantom it just sucks the fun out of it because over half the time Im dead before I even know he is there. Maybe its my graphics settings, maybe its that I dont want to have my sound super loud when there are explosions going off all the time but I barely notice phantom unless he is sprinting, or hacking my head off. The rare occasions I do notice him I empty a clip into him and am into reloading by the time he kills me.[/quote]You’ll get used to it… once he’s correctly balanced. Like all the things I pointed above.

[quote=“favoriteKnife;45448”]
I think the dev’s get the point he is OP by now, its just a matter of how to balance. Massive shield reduction (or massive health and keep shield), slight invis cooldown extension, and maybe even tweak the visuals a touch. Definitely add something to a friendly phantom so you can see where they are, and also know they arent an enemy easier.[/quote]
We are agreeing, tbh. I disagree with the “Phantom has no place in this game” reaction. I agree with the “Phantom is OP” people.
Btw, one of his main issue is also the very long “hit window” of the Katana. You can secondary-fire in the general direction of the target, wave the katana around, and the thing is damaging for more than half a second anything passing into its hit radius. That’s stupid.

SD, just balance the damn Merc, and be gone with it.

(DMaster2) #34

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;45449”]
If you aren’t already doing this with characters like Rhino, Nader, Fragger, Vasilli, Sparks, Skyhammer, Kira, Arty, Proxy, and Bushwahacka. Then it wouldn’t matter if he was removed, because then you’d be getting killed by someone else. They ALL have mechanics that punish bad awareness.

The difference it that Phantom pretty much thrives on it, so it’s much more potent when you’re making the mistake of not paying attention to what’s going on around you.

That’s why I find this all hilarious, it’s as if you guys never had to double check what’s going on around you, or communicate to your team that a threat is nearby.[/quote]
It’s not the same thing and you know it. I can actually see Rhino and the likes, as for Vassili you simply have to avoid standing still and screaming “i’m a big fat target dummy”. Phantom? Whole different world. You can’t detect him if he doesn’t want to. You literally cannot detect him while he is standing still, waiting for a chance to backstab you.

(watsyurdeal) #35

[quote=“cannyEdition;45477”]
It’s not the same thing and you know it. I can actually see Rhino and the likes, as for Vassili you simply have to avoid standing still and screaming “i’m a big fat target dummy”. Phantom? Whole different world. You can’t detect him if he doesn’t want to. You literally cannot detect him while he is standing still, waiting for a chance to backstab you.[/quote]

Like you’d be able to detect anyone else who was standing still waiting to shoot you as you pass around the corner.

Also, again, because it’s very relevant

Different tactics yes, but you still need to be aware of your surroundings like you have to with any other merc. Making an exception just because “well this is more annoying” is all entirely subjective and based on your own ability, and because of that, it IS something you can work on. Don’t puss out on me now!

(DMaster2) #36

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;45480”]

[quote=“cannyEdition;45477”]
It’s not the same thing and you know it. I can actually see Rhino and the likes, as for Vassili you simply have to avoid standing still and screaming “i’m a big fat target dummy”. Phantom? Whole different world. You can’t detect him if he doesn’t want to. You literally cannot detect him while he is standing still, waiting for a chance to backstab you.[/quote]

Like you’d be able to detect anyone else who was standing still waiting to shoot you as you pass around the corner.

Also, again, because it’s very relevant

Different tactics yes, but you still need to be aware of your surroundings like you have to with any other merc. Making an exception just because “well this is more annoying” is all entirely subjective and based on your own ability, and because of that, it IS something you can work on. Don’t puss out on me now![/quote]
Except other mercs tend to be visible and getting a bag of bullets if they try that tactic. Phantom can sneak into ambush position without being seen AND you can’t see him until he kills you. He can literally be a stalking assassin and there is nothing you can do to avoid it, because while he is still you can’t hear nor see him.

(ludicrousBlast) #37

As I said in the original post, he 100% needs tweaking. But most of it is skill. Take a highly skilled player. Now give him the ability to get behind everyone. With a sword. He would kill a lot of people anyway, but people find it to be much more annoying, much like getting headshot by Vassili. Average scoreboard deaths that I found with phantom’s on my or the enemy team did not drop that much from normal, it just seems like it because people find it annoying to get killed from behind or in an unfair manner. I think if his invisibility cooldown was reduced and fix the beyblade thing it would be fine.

(Halosheep) #38

Oh my goodness, the amount of times I’ve heard the invisishield turn on and do a spin just to check and see a gray figure moving towards me, freak out and switch to a shotgun and get ready to be one shot only to find out that he’s a friendly phantom is more than I could care to count. Just make him a blue blob instead of a gray one and I won’t have to be so paranoid all the time!

As my personal opinion, it’s not so much that I think he’s blatantly overpowered (though he is a bit too strong for my tastes… especially since I only like the light characters), it’s that he isn’t fun to play against. Even if you DO see him, even if you KNOW he’s right in front of you, if you unload into his cloaked form you’re still going to get instakilled by a swype that, honestly, is easier to place than any of the shots that I just put into him. I find myself just rolling my eyes and sighing when I get repeatedly killed by a phantom, especially when he’s near my spawn. The game is objectively less fun to play when you don’t get much of a chance to defeat an opponent that is leagues more powerful than you.

(Keelin) #39

I am one of those Proxys that handle Phantom just fine. Sure, corners are my worst enemy and will usually be the cause of my death, but a Rhino with a dedicated Aura annoys me way more.

With that said, I do think he needs tweaked. My vote is to ditch the shield, and if that is done than I don’t think he really needs any other changes.

I also agree with everyone that says he doesn’t belong in the game. Why? Because the game isn’t made for it. My opinion on how Phantom plays would be described as “swinging a stick out in front of you without bending your arms, turning your body, and while running.” That is what most first person melee feels like. To make melee feel good there would have to be a lot of work done with the movements, animations, and physics of it all. It would have to be the focus of the game.

Phantom is slightly OP at best, and doesn’t ruin the game. You get used to playing against him. League of Legends is the best example. EVERY new champion is on perma ban until the next scary one comes along because no one knows how to play against them. Once they get a few matches under their belt and learn how to counter play them then you rarely see them banned again. It just takes way longer in LoL because you may not see one in game for a month due to bans.

The biggest issue with this whole thing is that he was released, knowing it would be controversial, without a good counter in place. Yeah Vassili helps a great deal, but he isn’t your answer to keep casual and new players from getting wrecked. It is a pretty big part of the DB population that is getting worked up over it, and as much as some hate to admit it you have to balance for both the casual and the hardcore DB player otherwise you’ll only have the hardcore players left, which will be the minority.

(Keelin) #40

One question I have is about the “Beyblade” video. Is spinning around really a mechanic for him? Cause if that is then that shit needs to go. lol